Darren
Hitting the Tyre
It's better to crash and burn than to fade away
Posts: 88
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Post by Darren on Jul 23, 2009 12:16:40 GMT
ok now we've gone from slow mid race to Ankerman setting... cue my question.. On the T2009 the ackerman setting are 1 high steer... Good for Low Traction carpet 2 3 4 5 Low steer... Good for high Traction Asphalt
To me this seems wrong as i would say that carpet has higher grip levels than asphalt (maybe not on a sunny day) I've ran the car with 1 which gave good turn and when i tried it at 3 i lost corner speed and turn (running with 1 neg deg camber and .5 neg deg toe, 18 degs turn left and right) Any idea's...anyone..? Wouldn't you run high steering on carpet anyway as corners are tighter on carpet tracks than outdoor asphalt. So if 5 is for High traction (carpet/asphalt) wouldn't you struggle to get around the sharp corners giving that its the lowest steering setting...?
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 23, 2009 12:17:59 GMT
Ps roll on Yeovil...dont worry about Ackerman the tarmac will tare your rubber to shreads anyway ;D Matt that will now be £21 per wheel ;D
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 23, 2009 12:23:43 GMT
Going back to Ians set up comment,Personally I have never suffered bad front only graining,I dont think our other faster Cyclone drivers have either?? . This is an interesting and timely discussion. Last Saturday Craig did a few laps with Ian's car and was astonished by the tightness of the turn, all the way through the corner. Something for us to work on. But I wonder if it is due, at least in part, to Ian having his geometry setup to a larger inner wheel angle, hence the tightness and the graining?
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 23, 2009 12:27:48 GMT
I'm lost - like yellowshark trying to setup a Cyclone!! Fortunately something I have never suffered from Matt ;D
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 23, 2009 12:30:45 GMT
Going back to Ians set up comment,Personally I have never suffered bad front only graining,I dont think our other faster Cyclone drivers have either?? . This is an interesting and timely discussion. Last Saturday Craig did a few laps with Ian's car and was astonished by the tightness of the turn, all the way through the corner. Something for us to work on. But I wonder if it is due, at least in part, to Ian having his geometry setup to a larger inner wheel angle, hence the tightness and the graining? Thinks If you are turning tighter and scrubbing are you actually lapping faster than turning shallower and not scrubbing?
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 23, 2009 12:40:00 GMT
What happened at STCC? were all the "top" boys the same? Matt We will never Know Matt. I allways found the Xray a bit "vauge" with Ackerman,I never seemed to get a good feed back when I played with it,might of been me though the car had develpoed some slop buy the time I got round to it,so I expect the odd degree woud'nt of made much differenc...plus when ever I checked other drivers cars they wre all running something different... Radial Ackerman settings/adjustment seems to be the in thing at the moment...Apparently its very critical on carpet with foams. Les I would have to admit that my beauty's steering aint the tightest in the world; have a bunch of new (expensive) parts to rebuild it for the Juniors. But we had have had a lot of success with the Ackermann. It is one of the first things we change (to see) on foreign tracks -its easy and Craig does notice the difference, good or bad. Mind you we hardly ever move it more than one position. Again though I suspect it is one of things, as always, where results will vary depending on other aspects of your setup.
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Post by lesbaldry on Jul 23, 2009 13:01:13 GMT
This is an interesting and timely discussion. Last Saturday Craig did a few laps with Ian's car and was astonished by the tightness of the turn, all the way through the corner. Something for us to work on. But I wonder if it is due, at least in part, to Ian having his geometry setup to a larger inner wheel angle, hence the tightness and the graining? Thinks If you are turning tighter and scrubbing are you actually lapping faster than turning shallower and not scrubbing? Not with you here Pete...theoreticaly the wheel angles should follow the imaginary radious's as close as poss,any thing else is scrubbing the tyres and will hurt lap times later.....Top drivers look "so slow" round corners but the car is glued and not sideways scrubbing rubber! so I would emagin the Ackerman is near perfect and the susspention set up is working the rubber correctly. Pete when I said "vauge" the car would not respond to what I was used too compared to the Cyclone...nothing wrong with that it just confused me so I left it in kit mode and worked with roll points and arm sweep for steering responce.
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Post by Reuben on Jul 23, 2009 13:08:25 GMT
Weird thing is, just checked my STCC times running 13.5 with new tyres for the day..
taking out the 2 off's and replacing them with the overall average gives me a consistent 4 quarters with 0.07 between the highest and lowest..
Maybe it is old tyres?
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 23, 2009 13:11:01 GMT
ok now we've gone from slow mid race to Ankerman setting... cue my question.. On the T2009 the ackerman setting are 1 high steer... Good for Low Traction carpet 2 3 4 5 Low steer... Good for high Traction Asphalt To me this seems wrong as i would say that carpet has higher grip levels than asphalt (maybe not on a sunny day) I've ran the car with 1 which gave good turn and when i tried it at 3 i lost corner speed and turn (running with 1 neg deg camber and .5 neg deg toe, 18 degs turn left and right) Any idea's...anyone..? Wouldn't you run high steering on carpet anyway as corners are tighter on carpet tracks than outdoor asphalt. So if 5 is for High traction (carpet/asphalt) wouldn't you struggle to get around the sharp corners giving that its the lowest steering setting...? Hi Darren Historically the subject/references points of hi/lo grip and asphalt/carpet have in my view always been a bit confusing or ambiguous ion the XRAY manuals. This did though improve substantiallywith the 008 where in the Instruction manual – as against the Setup manual which has not changed since the original T2 – there are specific references between the US spec car (carpet) and EU spec car (asphalt) I would not worry too much about your point; yes it does look wrong but I do not have the manual in front of me. The important point to get right is that position 1 ie the position that makes your steering links more parallel as against position 5 which makes the inner ends of the steering links angled towards the front of the car, will give you more Ackerman which is recommended for low to medium grip conditions. We have a similar setup to you 1.5 neg camber, .5 toe out, 18-19 degrees inner wheel. But we run setting 4 at Bashley normally. At Eastbourne earlier tin the year which was well slipper, we changed to setting 3 with good effect. It is difficult to say but setting 1 does not seem right to me for Bashley but it depends on other factors too. Ackermann is affected by which of the two positions you attach your steering links to the steering blocks/arms and which positions you have the quicksavver holders set in the chassis and the top deck. ??
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 23, 2009 13:12:47 GMT
BTW the Staples brothers run more ackermann than we do, I guess positions 1 or 2, and they are rather good
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Post by lesbaldry on Jul 23, 2009 13:21:01 GMT
Darrens question....from what I read into foam carpet set ups,lots of Ackerman is needed for slow tight hair pins but the grip level from foams is massive so they dial out excessive front grip by other methods,very stiff springs,short camber links etc etc
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Post by oldtimeracer on Jul 23, 2009 13:29:00 GMT
Ok so I have no idea what ackerman I am running except to say it is whatever the kit manual said. Never played with it to be honest.
However, I did last night find that the car was very rear end loose which is something I have not had for a while so turned the steering rate down to 80% on the transmitter. I also increased the droop at the front quite a bit. The result was with older tyres the steering was as tight as it always is (so it seemed) the rear was much more settled and surprisingly the front tyres did not appear to grain up?
I have always had the front tyres grain up quickly on this car but I suspect it is more the way I drive than anything else.
Racing with Simon last night I found I was going into corners much faster than he was and it seemed I could turn in much quicker and tighter, at least when he was not going backwards that is (Sorry Simon). Just could not keep up with his pace on the straights though. I do tend to enter corners very quickly and I am sure that hurts the tyres more than actually having something badly wrong with set up.
Craig was certainly a little surprised at how quick my car turned in though. I have always liked a lot of steering grip as you can then just not move the sticks so much if you need to. I hate going into every corner and having to be on full lock all the time. No room for error.
My times from last night were fairly consistent as well. My fastest laps were right at the start and very near the end though. The middle bit is a mystery. Consistent but not fast. The start of the race on freshly "tuned" rubber certainly helps with grip, as the tyres wear, get hot etc they do lose grip but seem to come back at the end.
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Post by lesbaldry on Jul 23, 2009 14:00:38 GMT
Ian the Cyclones kit setting is the least amount of Ackerman change,too me I have allways found it a bit twitchy and the car has aggressive turn in,thats probably why you had to reduce your throws,try 3mm: 1x1mm 1x2mm spacers this seems to calm the car but still gives good response ,it will give slightly more Ackerman and help with the thermometer too,1x2mm I find a little soft unless I change springs ...perhaps you are not running enough Ackerman and you are scrubbing(too parallel) on our tight little track???
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Post by oldtimeracer on Jul 23, 2009 14:47:51 GMT
Will give it a try Les and see what happens.
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Post by lesbaldry on Jul 23, 2009 14:57:49 GMT
Will give it a try Les and see what happens. Its what I favor Ian..the worlds eddition does not seem to need it ,it has a shorter wheel base.....Hmmm shorter wheel base on the TC,something else to try
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Post by gwesty on Jul 23, 2009 17:18:03 GMT
hiya , when i was with hot bodies team the normal ackerman setting was 4mm , although we some times ran 3.5mm for more exit steering . hth gw
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 23, 2009 19:27:28 GMT
Will give it a try Les and see what happens. Its what I favor Ian..the worlds eddition does not seem to need it ,it has a shorter wheel base.....Hmmm shorter wheel base on the TC,something else to try We recently shortened the 009 wheelbase Les and it made a serious difference for us
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 24, 2009 7:19:12 GMT
Darren, you were quoting from the Instruction manual. Read page 17 in the Setup manual. This gives a much fuller description and interestingly does not mention carpet/asphalt. You will also see some suggestions on how Ackermann interacts withe inner wheel steering angle and what changes to make to the inner wheel angle (EPA) when you adjust the Ackermann.
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Darren
Hitting the Tyre
It's better to crash and burn than to fade away
Posts: 88
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Post by Darren on Jul 24, 2009 9:05:02 GMT
Darren, you were quoting from the Instruction manual. Read page 17 in the Setup manual. After looking at this, which is set up for T2's in general has it only has 2 inner ackermann setting the T2009's ackermann which has 5 inner ackermann, i take it the T2009's ackermann setting are more finer and 1 would equal 1 on the T2 (006 for example) and 5 would equal 2 on T2 (006 for example) So i need to find the perfect arc using 1 to 5 on the inner ackermann and epa on my transmitter as most people dont really use Position 2 on the outer ackermann (steering arm)
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Post by lesbaldry on Jul 24, 2009 9:57:19 GMT
Off subject here slightly Darren next time Richard Youngs at the track take a look at his set up....I had a drive of his car and it surprised me "its a cracker" very stable and planted!!....for an Xray ...sorry Pete the temptation was to great lol ;D
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 24, 2009 11:22:55 GMT
Off subject here slightly Darren next time Richard Youngs at the track take a look at his set up....I had a drive of his car and it surprised me "its a cracker" very stable and planted!!....for an Xray ...sorry Pete the temptation was to great lol ;D Allowed Les ;D
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 24, 2009 11:45:44 GMT
Darren, the issue with the XRAY setup manual, awesomely excellent though it is, is that it has not been updated since the 008 and 009 releases. This does mean there are just a few things, the Quicksaver being one, that could do with some setup descriptions and help. The 008/9 does have the inner adjustment of two positions – in addition to the 5 adjustment positions on the Quicksaver. This is done by how you mount the Quicksaver into the chassis and the top deck – the Instruction manual has the detail on this. I really am not clear on how you relate the inner and outer settings on the T2, as documented in the setup book to inner and outer settings plus the quiksaver 5 positions on the 008 and 009. You may be right that you treat it as a fine adjustment but I have only played with the Quicksaver (because it is quick ;D). I think Graham Staples has had or does have his 009 setup with the outer position changed so it would be worth you talking to him. But look if you are a newbie to racing then I do think that if you stick to kit settings in this area and have a play with moving the Qicksaver 1 position either way, you wont go wrong (ie position 3,4 or 2). Going for anything more radical could land you in a heap of trouble. If you are not a newbie apologies and please ignore that.
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Darren
Hitting the Tyre
It's better to crash and burn than to fade away
Posts: 88
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Post by Darren on Jul 24, 2009 14:12:30 GMT
Thanks for the advise lads, i'll have a play with some things and maybe look at some other xray drivers car.....
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