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Post by Jazzler on Nov 7, 2010 16:22:52 GMT
Something I noticed over the past couple of years I have been racing, is that people switch around classes quite regularly, depending on the their friends are running week by week. With our current setup, in any championship it has its own requirements of the number of rounds you much complete to qualify. e.g. in a 12 round championship, you must complete at least 6 rounds, and your championship position at the end is based on your best 6 results. The issue here is that if you do not complete at least 6 rounds in that specific class, then you forfeit all your points and do not qualify. It leads to championships where only a couple of people are completing enough rounds to count, in a specific class. My proposal is that we should keep the 'Best 6 Results From 12 Rounds' for those that complete 6 rounds in a class. But that people who complete 3 to 5 rounds will have their points count, and their points will still stand instead of being forfeited. As things currently stand, looking at the results on the shmcc.org website shows that in the following classes: - Stock: Max 3 people can qualify to finish the championship. - Eco: No one will qualify - Eco Pro: Max 2 people will qualify for their points to count - Open TC: Max 1 person will qualify. As although we get a good turnout of racers each week, people change classes (Which I also think is great that anyone can do what they want). If its changed to a minimum of 3 rounds to qualify (although anyone that does 4 or more will obviously be in a better position since the best 6 rounds will still count.), but the difference is that: - Stock: Min 7 people would qualify, and potentially 11 could qualify by completing the rest of the rounds in current champ. - Eco: Sorry, still no one would qualify here.. (Need to do more than 1 round each guys ) - Eco Pro: Min 3 would qualify, and up to 5 could if they completed the rest of the rounds. - Open TC: 4 people would qualify for the champ. I hope I have worded this in an understandable way,and this is totally open to discussion. If what I say here is not clear, please post and I will try to clarify. If you think its a good idea then post, and also if you think its bad then please speak up.
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Post by mattsedgley on Nov 7, 2010 16:28:23 GMT
generally - your points still count, but we used to say you had to complete the minimum number of rounds to get a trophy for entering, we don't really do trophies now..
although i'm not really sure if that changes your idea or not..
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Post by Jazzler on Nov 7, 2010 16:41:49 GMT
generally - your points still count, but we used to say you had to complete the minimum number of rounds to get a trophy for entering, we don't really do trophies now.. although i'm not really sure if that changes your idea or not.. No doesn't change it, The proposal is not about trophy's as such, basically just about being able to qualify for a championship. I mean its only the top 3 in each class that generally would get a trophy anyway, so the extra 14 people that would qualify for a championship result with this different approach would mean if we were doing trophy's then we would need to issue 3 more, but would have 20 people total completing our championships with a result, instead of what looks like a poor turnout for the club of just 5. Trophies for the top 3 in each class would be nice, but not necessary as part of this proposal. It's simply for championship standings.
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Post by liampettit on Nov 7, 2010 16:55:13 GMT
i think its a good idea, but think it should be 4 rounds not 3
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Post by darrenoakley on Nov 7, 2010 17:18:24 GMT
4 maybe 5 or make whole championships shorter. I myself think the championships are a bit pointless unless you get the same group of racers doing it each round. Maybe if it was shorter it may encourage racers to do the minimum rounds in only one class. I think if we lessen(is that a real word) the amount of rounds that count we are only encouraging less participation. If we shorten it you could then potentially compete in 4 different classes over the course of the summer. Or am I way off ?
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Post by mattsedgley on Nov 7, 2010 17:28:25 GMT
what about spreading the chamionship out? maybe only 1 round a month? or two? the rest as just normal club meetings?
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Post by Jazzler on Nov 7, 2010 17:28:55 GMT
4 maybe 5 or make whole championships shorter. I myself think the championships are a bit pointless unless you get the same group of racers doing it each round. Maybe if it was shorter it may encourage racers to do the minimum rounds in only one class. I think if we lessen(is that a real word) the amount of rounds that count we are only encouraging less participation. If we shorten it you could then potentially compete in 4 different classes over the course of the summer. Or am I way off ? 4 sounds feasible to me, or as you say even 5 would be better than 6. Although I want to be clear, I'm not suggesting that we change the number of rounds that count. Simply thinking of a way that more than 1 or 2 people will at least qualify for a championship result. As it stands championships do seem a little pointless: e.g. in Open TC, I will finish 1st and Last in the current outdoor championship, even though there are other racers who have done or can do 4 or 5 rounds still before the end of it. It seem that this is a pretty common occurance with things as they are, looking at the results. Or maybe people are not bothered by championships???
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Post by mattsedgley on Nov 7, 2010 17:31:09 GMT
personally i couldn't give a monkeys
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Post by Jazzler on Nov 7, 2010 17:32:36 GMT
what about spreading the chamionship out? maybe only 1 round a month? or two? the rest as just normal club meetings? This sounds good to me too.
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Post by mattsedgley on Nov 7, 2010 17:33:19 GMT
lets take a step further back.. if you run in a championship you qualify to finish in the championship.. even if you dont do the minimum rounds don't you?
Is there a rule existing that you're basing this on Jason?
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Post by Jazzler on Nov 7, 2010 17:55:31 GMT
lets take a step further back.. if you run in a championship you qualify to finish in the championship.. even if you dont do the minimum rounds don't you? Is there a rule existing that you're basing this on Jason? Not sure if there is a written rule or not, or maybe I'm just blowing hot wind, and maybe nobody does give a monkeys. I'm just basing it on discussions I have with people. At the moment, the championships do seem a bit pointless. Looking again at the current outdoor champ, With a total of 6 people finishing 6 rounds in a single class, across 4 classes, to me it would seem like its something we could address? I'm not saying this is the definitive answer either, just proposing a discussion. And if no one really cares about the championships then why do we bother to run them so frequently?
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Post by mattsedgley on Nov 7, 2010 18:38:45 GMT
I guess previously, 3 - 4 - 5 years ago, when regional races were the places only the very best of a club went to, there was more to play for between the rest of us left behind, now it seems that everyone travels everywhere... to every meeting....
i'm not sure what the answer is, but certainly, it'd be nice to have some meetings that are just us lot having a laugh..
the issue of class swapping is something quite interesting as well.. generally one or two people choose a class and "the rest" follow suit...
anyone got any bright ideas?
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Post by darrenoakley on Nov 7, 2010 18:54:27 GMT
To be honest I don't know if anyone is bothered about the club championship, but it is a good way to record your fastest races and compare it to other racers and yourself.
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Post by justchris on Nov 7, 2010 19:03:44 GMT
Hi. This is almost my first full year now apart from missing out in the summer and I think i understand what Jace means - I will win (I believe) the pro-Eco ALTHOUGH I have never beaten Terry C or Ian Lloyd and came 4th today behind Dave and Neil. The winning may happen due to attending as often as possible (apart from when the taxman strikes!) so my idea is 1) shorten rounds to 8 meetings and ALL rounds to count 2) a points system/structure similar to F1 - e.g. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc have points more than 1 space apart Hope this makes sense I believe, in my opinion, that this will make good racing like today because each meeting will be a sort of Championship in itself - i.e. the more meetings you win, the higher the points difference which would reward good driving rather than just attendance. BUT whilst still giving everyone a chance to catch up if they attend all the time - e.g. 3 second places at 18points will put you in the lead over someone who races twice but wins both times. I could be completely off track with this but I have someone typing whilst I talk so you will all have to read it! Chris
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Post by mattsedgley on Nov 7, 2010 19:26:03 GMT
maybe a longer championship?
I disagree that the championship tables are a good way of comparison.. other than who turns up more often..
Maybe we should place more impetus on fastest lap? or best run? and have a league for that?
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Post by darrenoakley on Nov 7, 2010 19:33:06 GMT
I like the sound of Chris proposal. If the championship is worth running this would be a good way to stop racers winning due to just turning up the most and consistently running the same class. I also came 1st in the early summer evening championship. But it was worthless really as I didn't beat anyone to get there just didn't miss a race. If the points gap was bigger it would make it possible to miss a race and catch up by having a good next few meetings.
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Post by darrenoakley on Nov 7, 2010 19:40:24 GMT
I disagree that the championship tables are a good way of comparison.. other than who turns up more often.. What I ment was compairing individual races not comparing yourself against others by the championship standings. As my next post said championship position didn't really mean a thing unless everyone did every round. But you have to agree it is a way of the racer going online and looking back say 2 weeks to see what his best time was and having a time to beat. Or at least that's what I do
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Post by mattsedgley on Nov 7, 2010 19:42:26 GMT
i deleted my post cause it didn't make sense! sorry!
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Post by mattsedgley on Nov 7, 2010 19:46:45 GMT
having a way to look back is really important i agree - i religiously look at the results from newbury to see where changes have helped or not..
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Post by yellowshark on Nov 8, 2010 0:16:32 GMT
Ok I would like to present some alternative views on this one.
Championships are there for people to compete in, not to dip toes into. I don’t understand why any sane person would enter a championship, then race in another class, then another, so at the end of the day they come at the bottom of all 3 (actually I do and I will come back to that). EG Ferrari don’t think lets miss out on Monza next week and do GP2 at Hockenheim. The club always ran very successful championships before brushless came along so we know it works well. The club members have to decide do they want championships or not. If you do then you select your class and that is what you ought to race in each round – otherwise what s the point in entering it (assuming you want to contest a championship)?
Now it may be that having a round nearly every week is the root of the problem? If Fred likes racing with Jonnie now and again but they enter different championships then if every week is a championship weekend that is what leads to them swapping classes – I guess. If Tony wants to try out different engines and setups because the SLCC runs 17.5, the STCC run 21.5, the Nats run 10.5, then if every weekend is a championship how does he get practice and setup on all three classes without moving between our championships all the time.
The answer it seems is prettty obvious.
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Post by yellowshark on Nov 8, 2010 0:33:41 GMT
I like the sound of Chris proposal. If the championship is worth running this would be a good way to stop racers winning due to just turning up the most and consistently running the same class. Sorry but I just cannot agree with this. Why should someone who turns up every week and supports the club and contributes to its funds be penalised, jaysus they deserve to win the championship. Why would anyone who has the intelliegence to see that to do well in a championship you have to contend that championship and not spread yourself across multiple championships be penalised. Get real poeple; a championship is there to be contended. That doesn't mean everyone has to want to contend it, but those that do should get their just rewards and if they turn up enough times to get the minimum rounds and others don't then good luck to them, they have made the commitment to the club and spent their money and deserve to win on that basis.
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Post by yellowshark on Nov 8, 2010 1:00:44 GMT
1) shorten rounds to 8 meetings and ALL rounds to count Chris, I think this one is probably unworkable although I appreciate where you are coming from. Take the summer championship. 95%(?) of the membership will have a holiday and miss one round minimum. That means that the one person who does not have a holiday will most likely win the competition.
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Post by yellowshark on Nov 8, 2010 1:06:07 GMT
2) a points system/structure similar to F1 - e.g. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc have points more than 1 space apart Chris keep the ideas coming!! but not sure whether this actually does anything? It might do but it just seems to me that it means we beat Sedgey by 40 points instead of 8. Remember the reason F1 do this is to try and motivate drivers to overtake, not something WE have a problem with, ask Reuben Sorry guys couldnt resist either of those ;D
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Post by Jazzler on Nov 8, 2010 7:22:51 GMT
Ok, some good points raised guys. Although I think it may be getting a little side tracked.
My proposal was nothing to do with who wins the championship, and also wasn't even requesting that the top 3 all get trophies, regardless of the number of rounds completed. It was simply to allow more than 1 or 2 people to finish the championship with a result, even if they didn't complete 50% of the rounds.
It would not make any difference to who won the championship, since if you don't do 6 rounds and someone else did, (And that person turns up more frequently running the same class) then obviously the person with the 6 rounds completed would win.
Upon further personal reflection on this, I myself believe that my initial proposal was not valid, as it would appear that the '6 rounds to count' is with regards to trophy's, and that looking at the final championship results tables every competitor is given a place anyway, regardless of the number of rounds completed.
With that in mind I would like to retract my proposal. However maybe it's a good idea for us to reflect on whether there are any changes to the championships that might make them more appealing? Or maybe people are just happy to use them as an online 'results check' service and continue as we are.
Either way, in my mind, I'm happy with the result, and think it was my misunderstanding of how it all works that lead to my proposal in the first place.
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Post by darrenoakley on Nov 8, 2010 9:14:32 GMT
Myself and I think Chris also are talking about our on personal experience of coming first in a championship without actually winning a race. I can't imagine anyone would want a trophy for that, at least I wouldn't have thought so. What your talking about is a trophey for turning up. All this does is cost the club money that can go tawards more worthy use. Ps who are Fred and jonnie new members mate
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ianlloyd
Lapping the Back Markers
Posts: 932
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Post by ianlloyd on Nov 22, 2010 16:03:28 GMT
Maybe there are too many championships?
OK from my point of view, if you are doing a championship then you do it. Not change every other week for whatever reason. If you do a championship then you should get and keep whatever points you score however many or few times you do that championship.
I remember old Graham with his TL01. He could win and did in fact, many championships at our club purely because he turned up every week regardless. Don't think he ever won a race in his life but he did turn up and as such in my opinion deserved to win. I think it's called commitment?
Maybe a championship round every other week and the ones in between are just "fun" days?
I also like the idea of more points for winning than just getting 1 over second place etc.
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