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Post by Simon Crabb on Sept 14, 2008 17:52:37 GMT
We spend a lot of time talking about fiddling with the techonology to make our cars perform better, but we don't talk much about how to drive them!
I'm all confused how to drive as quickly as the top boys! Where do I brake? How much throttle do I use? What are the quick lines?
You can watch the lines of the good guys, but it's hard to tell what they are doing with the throttle and steering to make them do that! Though, now Graham has a shaft drive, you can hear where he lifts off too! ;D
Do you know what I mean?
Any volunteers to 'walk us through' a lap of our wonderful little track?
(And of course, we need to take into consideration that stock and prostock and mod driving are all different beasts!)
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Post by keitheroonie on Sept 14, 2008 18:03:00 GMT
OOH! nice question Simon, obviously I can't answer it but I am interested in reading the replies
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Post by TryHard on Sept 14, 2008 19:41:53 GMT
from the start line, accerlerate, brake a tad, steer, then repeat for the rest of the corners... hehe
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Post by number1dan on Sept 14, 2008 20:02:40 GMT
i dunno if this will help any1 but heres my lap in a 10.5... Full throttle down the straight (SHOCKER!!) let off for the sweeper and tap the brake for the first hairpin, gently accelerate out that corner and blip the throttle for the next 2. Down the chicane blast it for a half a second b4 heavy braking into the top left corner, point and squirt down the next short straight, tap the brake and roll until i pass the tyre then quite aggressively accelerate, tap brake, turn, squirt, tap brake, turn and gradually accelerate out the thermometer and roll into the next corner and blast down the hill into the home straight simple
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Post by Simon Crabb on Sept 14, 2008 21:56:25 GMT
Good stuff Dan, exactly what I was looking for!
(There's two places I don't brake there! I've never braked going into SHMCC, even with a 10.5, I just seem to ease off and coast round. In stock I go full power round there!)
So if that's 10.5, what do you do in stock?
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Post by lesbaldry on Sept 15, 2008 7:02:19 GMT
Simon the best way to learn and test your set up I think is to Play race with a faster driver and let him talk you through the lap while practicing,note where your car is slower/faster than the other drivers,can he turn in better,plant the power earlier with out spining out,do minor adjustments and test again with him?!? As long as your car's set up is good its normaly good tyre choice and small personal adjustments to the car that makes the extra speed "confidence to push the car hard" A lot of drivers find a decent set up but are frighten'd to change things..dont be!..Its surprising how small adjustments can give you extra speed..Half a second a lap may not sound much but add that up over 18 laps or so. Driving styles differ,I feel where one driver brakes and steers compared to another somtimes can be irrelevent??? For any new driver..yes! pinch a good basic set up from someone,get consistant with it,but change small things,springing,droop, roll centers,Akerman ,shock positions and note the change,such a small thing as dropping the roll centers by 1mm can have a dramatic effect on lap times!set up is a personal thing ...I hope this helps with any fustration Yesterday I was driving my wheels off to try and catch the Staples (19.308) I dropped the inboard camber links "simple adjustment" and inproved to 19.302 ,not much faster but the car felt more stable to drive...experiment with small adjustments, they may surprise you
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Post by TryHard on Sept 15, 2008 8:01:32 GMT
same for me.. I dropped the front roll centre down, by moving some shims around underneath the suspension blocks, and promptly was able to have a really good battle with Rob. I'll admit it's something I've been wanting to try for a while, and now I'm happy I have Thats part the reason you'll always see me fiddling with the car, it's all about trying new stuff out
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Post by lesbaldry on Sept 15, 2008 10:44:20 GMT
Simon I sence fustration in your scribe,from watching you race there is nothing wrong with your ability or lines,far from it!! Adam Roe is a fine example of driver speed fustration,He's potentialy very quick "BUT" he's found a basic set up that is stable and suited him during his 16 lap stage, now hes a fair bit quicker he's stagnated with lap times and is perhaps frighten'd or dont know how too change the set up to suit his new ability. No mater how hard he tries he cant improve and tends to over drive the car in an atempt to be quicker..He can ask for set up advise but he's at a stage where a change that suits someone quicker may not suit him or his chassis,Example: Mick kindly let me copy Grays 21 lap stock set up for the Xray..I tried it " bloody awfull " It didnt suit me,way too much understeer,and it felt "soft" to drive. Just my thoughts Adam ..not ment to offend you mate
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Post by lesbaldry on Sept 15, 2008 15:08:54 GMT
Ok here go'es .."just for fun"a lap at our track.
Obviously max down the strait, lift on the first apex and keep it tightish (never found blasting down this bit any advantage) dab the brake befor the hair pin, part throttle and tight befor the first dog leg,exit quite wide to strait line the first dog leg,hard on the brake at the hiar pin,progresive thottle towards the tyre "or I drift wide coming out of this hair pin" clip the second dog leg apex and keep close to the grass on the cars right,steer towards the tyre quite early but dab the brake quickly to unsetle the car to get a good angle round the tyre,short blast of progresive thotle,part thottle round up to and round SHMCC, quick dab of full throttle and hard on the brake at the thermometer,progresive throtle out of the hair pin (or get thrown left into guttering) short squirt up the hill and depending apon where i end up, clip the apex and gently with the throttle down the hill, or go high and plant the throttle early and use the slope as a catapult "hard to get right" works well in stock class!come down the hill mid track to get a good line to the apex befor the strait
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Post by saintroeer on Sept 15, 2008 16:24:49 GMT
i dont know if simon would agree but thats a very frustrating answer les
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Post by Reuben on Sept 15, 2008 17:35:17 GMT
hehe i knew this thread was coming . I feel my car was setup nicely, if a little understeery (hoping to sort this out with a little less droop and softer springs on the front aka pinks) with that i managed 18. 307, the only difference to my previous 18. 313 was purely putting the power down in slightly different times, trying to push the G's into the car arround the corners, I know where im slow and i know where i need to improve my setup (top left corner and tyre) for some reason i cant get my car arround there as quick as others, but i reckon thats because im not pushing it as hard as a could round those corners... and hopefully with some minor setup ajustments ill get this done in a few weeks
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Post by Simon Crabb on Sept 15, 2008 17:45:55 GMT
Wow, that got you thinking Les, three replies to it in one day! ;D ;D
What I was trying to get at is 'what happens behind the sticks', rather than 'what happens on the car', the other half of the equation. I'm not so much frustrated, as fascinated at how different people do different things in this infinitely variable sport we pursue!
We all setup cars differently, and we all drive differently, and as you say what works for one person may not for another. Some people like a safe understeery car, and others like a very adjustable oversteery type car. So not everyone can drive every car.
For example, the other week I was doing a bit of Saturday practice. I worked on the setup, and ended up in a place where I could drive a 17.5 without lifting off for a whole lap! I was somewhat surprised. Sure, it was a warm day, and it was a bit hairy at times, but I was able to go round lap after lap using only steering to control it.
Timing the laps however showed me that it wasn't very quick doing that! Even though the lines weren't actually that bad, sure it ran wide a little here and there, but not as much as you'd think.
It made me think, okay, how do you drive that around faster, so you don't scrub off so much speed, but carry it instead. So I timed some more laps 'driving it', ie using the throttle too, and sure enough lower lap times..
Since then I've been trying different things going into corners, sometimes braking, sometimes not, sometimes lifting, sometimes not, sometimes using full power, sometimes only partial. And yesterday I settled on what to do on each corner, and I tried to repeat that every lap, and sure enough, consistent lap times. But not particularly quick ones!
I'll run you through my own lap, and you'll see how it differs - mainly through lack of braking, up until very recently (a hairy 10.5 experience that demonstrated you need to brake!!) I never braked at all!
--- Full power along the straight, round the first bend full power, lift off for the hairpin, back on the power whilst turning in and try to come into it late so on a nice line for turns '3 and 4', hugging the kerbs closely, usually on power.
Take the chicane straight, keeping left at final kerb before the hairpin, braking in a straight line, before back on power, turn in around hairpin, nice and tight coming out of it to get back on the power for around the dog leg and down to the tyre.
Keep out wide for an early full power or just off power turn in through the tyre, nice wide fast arc. Back on the power up over SHMCC, just above the paint, full power all the way round, or just a bit off power.
Down into thermometer, keep wide, brake hard, turn in, gently on power to exit thermometer quite tight for power up and over the hill, lifting power to keep it settled over the hill, back on power on the way down, keep off the grass and back onto the straight - toward the outside ready again for corner one. ---
So what I really want to know, is what does the driver need to do through the corner to carry maximum speed?
In a full size car it's more obvious, brake, blipping throttle (heel 'n toe), change gear, back on power controlling speed as you turn in, controlling power through corner as close to the limit as conditions and vehicle allows. There's a whole lot more senses feeding back to you.
I just think it'll be useful for people to see 'inside someones head' and see the things you can't observe by watching someone race - what they do with the controls.
Already from reading Dan's and Les's laps I can see they do things differently from me, and from each other, but that means I've got new things to try now that I'd not thought of!
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Post by number1dan on Sept 15, 2008 18:29:52 GMT
its actually quite interestin when u no how people take corners cos Si just lifts round, Les dabs brakes and dabs throttle and by the sounds of it im heavier on brakes and throttle than Les, how exciting! lol
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Post by Simon Crabb on Sept 15, 2008 19:00:09 GMT
its actually quite interestin when u no how people take corners cos Si just lifts round, Les dabs brakes and dabs throttle and by the sounds of it im heavier on brakes and throttle than Les, how exciting! lol Exactly! But you and Les are both about a lap faster than me! Or about a whole second a lap! A tiny bit at each corner!
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Post by number1dan on Sept 15, 2008 19:10:31 GMT
thats mainly cos Les is awesum and i just follow people round, as soon as u get in the A fianl u'll improve loads
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Post by lesbaldry on Sept 16, 2008 7:15:06 GMT
Sorry Simon was I OTT....Its hard to word how you drive as its instinctive??we all develop individual styles and a feel/set up for our cars,I still think the best way to inprove is to follow or play race with a faster driver,to me If a driver can keep his car on the black stuff for 5mins with good tight lines the only thing holding his speed back is small adjustments to set up! or a poor chassis that dont suit him.
Many drivers try a new car and find its pants and somtimes revert back to thier old make or try somthing else.one of our members is about to change his drive "about time chap" I predict him to be rather rapid with it!!
Craig dan and myself play race when ever we can "we enjoy it " but impotantly we learn from each other ;)put it this way ,If I'm up Dans chuff into a corner and he carries more speed than me and pulls 10 foot on me "and he often does" I will go and fiddle with the car and hopefully return the compliment in a later race. both of us are similar in ability so my way of thinking it must be a set up prob.those 10 foots soon add up to a lot over 5mins?
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Post by yellowshark on Sept 16, 2008 8:01:18 GMT
Craig dan and myself play race when ever we can "we enjoy it " but impotantly we learn from each other It's true Simon. Did you not notice how much faster Les was on Sunday ;D Seriously it really does work, try it!
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Post by lesbaldry on Sept 16, 2008 8:42:48 GMT
If I've had a bad run " nomaly a trip on the grass" I'll often pull into the pits and wait for the fastest driver and follow him for a lap or two to find out where my car is slow...back to the pits, have a fiddle and try again next run...Lap times are a true indication of your speed but you cant beat following a slightly faster car to check your cars flaws or perhaps your technique.."but ask first unless you know him well or trust each other"
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Post by Simon Crabb on Sept 16, 2008 12:43:51 GMT
Agreed, when racing closely to someone as quick or better than you usually results in both of you driving quicker than you would on your own. Mysterious but true.
I'm not convinced that driving is an intuitive thing. It becomes a habit, and you can easily drive around a track reasonably quickly without thinking about it. But, what if your intuition is not using a particularly quick method of driving?
More examples please - come on folks, everyone give an example of a lap and what they do around it!
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Post by lesbaldry on Sept 16, 2008 12:57:24 GMT
Agreed, when racing closely to someone as quick or better than you usually results in both of you driving quicker than you would on your own. Mysterious but true. I'm not convinced that driving is an intuitive thing. It becomes a habit, and you can easily drive around a track reasonably quickly without thinking about it. But, what if your intuition is not using a particularly quick method of driving? More examples please - come on folks, everyone give an example of a lap and what they do around it! Practicing alone..Its very easy to practice your own misstakes lap after lap,its not untill you follow a faster driver that you notice them,or have the guts to change set up to cary more speed into or out of a corner that you have probs with..set up /tyres are the key to fast laps,its having the confidence in the car to push hard without it biteing you back
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Post by saintroeer on Sept 16, 2008 13:00:07 GMT
how about we get a little geeky and get a camcorder to record some of our practice laps as we do a running commentary.
i know a couple of you guys might not be comfortable driving and talking but its just an idea.
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Post by lesbaldry on Sept 16, 2008 14:24:12 GMT
how about we get a little geeky and get a camcorder to record some of our practice laps as we do a running commentary. i know a couple of you guys might not be comfortable driving and talking but its just an idea. Hmmmmm....flat out down the strait,whoops panic braking at first apex,flat out and drift wide, bounce off barrier,flat out to start of dog leg, side swipe opponent,clip both dog leg apex's, hard on thr brake but too late your air born "Marshal" spin away from marshal with damp tyres.hard on the brakes for the tyre,do 180 and swear loudly,flat out to SHMCC still with wet tyres,turn in sharp to apex but understeer into sleeping marshall at point 3,Marshal kicks car onto track,you both exchange kind words,flat out to themometer, turn in early and hit it,flick car on opposite lock up the hill ,miss apex and drop into the dip,marshall places car on track, flat out to start of strait mumbling somthing about the marshall parenthood....22 sec lap and a bad attitude ;D
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Post by saintroeer on Sept 16, 2008 14:28:18 GMT
well thats the wedges, keith and my own laps cover then
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Post by number1dan on Sept 16, 2008 15:42:13 GMT
another factor is wot we r doin whilst driving, sum of us concerntrate on wot we r doin and others drift off and b4 we know it the race is over. ive sumtimes noticed when i snap out of my day dream because sum1s catching me, im standing awkwardly on 1 foot and it aches like mad, do u lot do this too or is it just me
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Post by keitheroonie on Sept 16, 2008 16:17:42 GMT
well thats the wedges, keith and my own laps cover then My thoughts exactly Adam, I was going to explain one of my laps but it was pretty much what les said, only my swearing (most of the time) is under my breath. ;D
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Post by yellowshark on Sept 16, 2008 16:50:54 GMT
how about we get a little geeky and get a camcorder to record some of our practice laps as we do a running commentary. i know a couple of you guys might not be comfortable driving and talking but its just an idea. You can then time yourself between two points, say exit of 2nd corner and exit of top left corner,lap after lap with an accuracy of of 1/25th of a second. A real accurate way to check your best line and setup for an rea of the track you are struggling with Of course you need a pit crew with a steady hand or a tripod and video editing software to draw the two lines and measure the time.
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Post by yellowshark on Sept 16, 2008 16:52:57 GMT
Agreed, when racing closely to someone as quick or better than you usually results in both of you driving quicker than you would on your own. Mysterious but true. Interesting observation Simon. I am not disagreeing, being nothing more than a casual observer, but in real (racing) life you go slower!
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Post by yellowshark on Sept 16, 2008 16:57:18 GMT
another factor is wot we r doin whilst driving, sum of us concerntrate on wot we r doin and others drift off and b4 we know it the race is over. ive sumtimes noticed when i snap out of my day dream because sum1s catching me, im standing awkwardly on 1 foot and it aches like mad, do u lot do this too or is it just me Just you Dan, in fact Derek and I were discussing it on Sunday, how you can drive while asleep then wake up and catch up 1/2 lap in 3 laps. We figured if we could work out how to keep you awake for 5 mins, we could market you and make a lot of money ;D
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Post by keitheroonie on Sept 16, 2008 18:48:07 GMT
If you can work out how to keep Dan awake and bottle it I'm sure there'd be plenty of customers, I'd buy some "anti-brainfart juice"
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Post by TryHard on Sept 16, 2008 21:25:42 GMT
well, I'm happy chat through a few laps if anyone wants to watch my lines from the rostrum. Also, another way to improve is to try other racers cars... if anyone wants a go with my car for a few laps in practise, you just have to ask... Same goes if anyone wants me to try theirs.
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