17.5 class and NG speedos

[lesbaldry]

Just a thought chaps

As most of us run 17.5's especialy our up and coming racers,how should we combine the NG speedos used buy some in this class,As we have seen a 17.5/NG combo is prety quick.probably as quick as 13.5/old school.

Personaly as I have both im happy to run my last years combo in any class on the day to keep speeds equall,how should we play this ? or let it run as it is...I hope I hav'nt opened a can of worms,but this may as well be debated befor any probs pop up?

Ill sit on the fence here,as you all know im all for an equall lower speed stock class.

[Reuben]

I think Pete made an interesting point on Racechat about a newer driver not being able to use the speed as efficiently as yourself or Graham.

I dont mind just letting it roll along, let people run what they want to run.

In all honesty we need to encourage as many drivers to race at bashley as we can. especially when we are struggling to get a set of full heats together. And its only going to get quieter with the bigger champs soon approaching.

[darrenoakley]

I also think that letting the indervidual deside is the best way to run. All you faster guys are going to be better regardless of speedo.

I am learning that slowing the esc down is helping me get round quicker indoors for one,But am also a fan of tech so like the new speedos but will not be trying to get the most out of them, instead trying to get the least out of them ( does that make sence )
If we try and inforce one style or type of speedo it could put racers off. Some may not need the new tech now but in a year or few months may do and not want to fork out twice.

if anyone fast comes before me in a race, I wish all i had blame it on was there kit. But sadly not ;D see you all tonight

[shaun207]

what is regarded as the new generation speedo's

[darrenoakley]

I class the highly programable speedos like the tekin RS computer programable. Could be wrong though mate.

[yellowshark]

Yup that is correct the Tekin RS is an NG. Any speedo that can

vary the amount of timing added
vary the rate at which the timing is added
vary the rev range during which the timing is added
have multiple points where timing can be added

would be considered an NG

They will almost certainly to let you vary the brake strength and drag too - but most non NGs do this.

The Tekin has a throttle profile which basically works the same as the transmitter throttle curve control

The GM has something to do with limiting the maximum amps drawn but I don't know how that works or how you would use it - no doubt a GM owner can advise.

[yellowshark]

Sorry, and I should have said, lets you update the firmware in the ESC over the Internet - well it doesn't have to be the internet, it could be any medium but the Internet is easier!

[issac]

i think the issue isn't with the new speed controllers but with the speed they give and how it shows the difference between (a new person to the sport or an old hand who only wants to race for fun on a sunday with whatever they have got ) and ( a person getting ready for and racing in national style championships )

A number of years ago the club had an F1 and F2 in stock championships. If you finished in the top 3 in F2 you was moved to F1. I believe it was removed becouse of the decreasing number of F2 drivers.

Now the club has new drivers of all abilities and perhaps its time to look at this again. Instead of winning a championship ( or in the top 3 ), a number of laps ( say 19 ) could be the cut off point where that driver moves upto F1 at the end of the championship.

lets face it drivers who only race at the club will race with what they have got and will prob only upgrade their equipment when it fails. The rest of us race in the national style championships and will want the latest and best so we are not left behind. A F1/F2 championship allows the two groups to race together but also allows the new and club only drivers not to be put off by those who race away from the club.

[yellowshark]

Spot on there Ian. I have made the comment before that whilst old lags may not be, most youngsters are competitive and like winning stuff and we won’t attract them if there is nothing to win (ducks whilst flame war starts)

F1/F2 is the obvious answer and indeed what many clubs run. In the Reality Cup it used to be that the top 3 end of season finishers had to race in F1 next year; I cannot recall if the club championship worked the same way. And there were trophies for F1 and F2. It seems to me that you can run it in at least 3 ways

1. As noted above

2. Based on fastest race time, ie Finals not qualifying, recorded that season; top 3 go up

3. Based on a prescribed race time; ie all meeting or exceeding go up; would be similar to Aldershot’s rating system although I don’t know if they use this to determine F1/F2 – I notice a certain Master Horton is F2

I never knew why we dropped F1/F2 but given what you said, should we consider relegation too? Seems to me that might only sit comfortably with option 3.

Don’t want it to get too complex though; to me we just need a structure that gives youngsters/newbies something where they can challenge for a championship.

If we were really smart we would introduce a handicap system based on class lap record time. That way Craig could prepare himself and his car for the various championships and still race competitively at the club

[Reuben]

I think to much emphasis is put on championships. Bottom line is, we all get out of bed early on a sunday morning to do what we enjoy!

Making championships for everyone to win something just seems like a way to patch the problem, not fixing it in the long run. I think we aim at south hants to keep the "fun" in the hobby, keep people racing and do what we enjoy.

again lets not look at this to deeply, there was a good point on the F1 qualifying yesterday about the boringness and making it more exciting in which the Ferrari bloke (name escapes me) said that it would be bad to make any knee jerk reactions. Same principle applies here?

[issac]

setting up an F1/F2 championship is not "patching the problem" it allows drivers of similar ability to race for a common goal together.for example i enjoy racing against matt and yourself becouse of the similar ability, but would i enjoy racing against somebody doing 12 laps prob not and they wouldn't get anything out of it becouse we would be lapping them so often whilst we get setup for other races.

I agree with keeping it fun but the club doesn't force anybody to race but also shouldn't expect a new driver to race against the very fast drivers for a result. We will prob have the latest gear and the know how to use it they don't. If we make it about chasing us then in the quest for speed do they not make it and give up or does the club help by getting them to race at the same ability and bring them on to our level.
if you want to quote Formula one then a driver does not start in formula one he starts in a lower formula and works his way up learning as he goes ( and this isnt f1 ) and as for knee jerk reactions shouldn't the club be open to any ideas that may help and discuss them

[Reuben]

Mar 28, 2010 19:22:00 GMT @issac said:

and as for knee jerk reactions shouldn't the club be open to any ideas that may help and discuss them

I didnt dismiss the idea and encouraging new members to the club and old members back to the club is something we are seriously looking at. Any suggestion is a good suggestion, ;D

[mattsedgley]

Mar 28, 2010 19:22:00 GMT @issac said:

and as for knee jerk reactions shouldn't the club be open to any ideas that may help and discuss them

The club hasn't made any rash decisions about anything, as ever we'll do some testing before we decide what's best for the club, after taking a careful considered view.

Obviously Ian it'd be great to have you rejoin the club again, and be a regular week in week out racer, one more person filling the gap between the fast and the not so fast helps everyone have tighter racing, which we all desire.

- Pete, Ian, if you've any more suggestions with plans and structure to go with them, why not PM Dave Chamberlain, and come along to our next committee meeting and we can discuss your thoughts. I'm not saying a positive discussion like this on the forum is a bad thing, obviously it's not. However some of the Committee are less conversant with forums and keeping up with fast moving threads (and issues involving specific parts of our hobby) like we seem to have!

I think Les's original post was designed to gain opinion on local level about a wider "are we in danger of..." feeling about the sport at the minute, rather than a specific local issue.

Just as I was writing this, I checked the results page, interesting to see that both indoors and outdoors, it's not the regional drivers winning the championships, it's the local every day club racers.

Matt

[yellowshark]

Mar 28, 2010 22:24:23 GMT @mattsedgley said:

Mar 28, 2010 19:22:00 GMT @issac said:

and as for knee jerk reactions shouldn't the club be open to any ideas that may help and discuss them

Just as I was writing this, I checked the results page, interesting to see that both indoors and outdoors, it's not the regional drivers winning the championships, it's the local every day club racers.

Matt

That's how it should be Matt. We are very proud to be leading the Club Pro-Stock Championship, laying 2nd in the Reality Cup Superstock championship and laying 3rd in the Club Superstock championship. Of course if we kept racing at Aldershot and Eastbourne that wouldn't be the case would it.

[mattsedgley]

Pete - If you've got a problem with where I race or what I do then keep it to yourself or complain to the committee.

I race where I want to for my enjoyment of MY hobby, whilst giving up a lot of free time behind the scenes to keep SHMCC running, if you think you can do a better job - then step up.

[lesbaldry]

Dont panic chaps ;D

NG is a wide term used for this type of speedo(internet/PC programable)....buying one does not necessarily give you Nitrous oxide injection ....even the various types of NG speedo varie in perfomance (as do motors) so splitting the classes(F1/F2) will be pointless as there is no definition on what make is faster,just like us drivers.....just my thoughts

My oringinal post was for those who like to keep racing close "on the day" by our friendly gentlemans agreement we normaly have,thats all ....whatever next? a 4 year old Cyclone TC in F2 and a MI4ep in F1 ....Oh and a T3/10.5 in F3 cause it has no grip and 10.5's toooo fast for our track (shark bait);D ;D ;D

[oldtimeracer]

Having not raced TC for a while, in fact since all this "speedo war" thing started, it was interesting for me to race ( race? maybe not) on Sunday and against some people with the latest or at least more up to date kit than my own. The result was I spent more time getting out of the way while being lapped than actually trying to be competitive, or at least it seemed that way to me.
Finishing two or three laps down on the others is not good fun even if your personal time is pretty good for you!
I have no intention of competing at nationals or spending a fortune on new kit so I have to either accept that I am not going to be competitive or give up altogether?. Or change classes again.

[lesbaldry]

Mar 29, 2010 7:55:08 GMT @oldtimeracer said:

Having not raced TC for a while, in fact since all this "speedo war" thing started, it was interesting for me to race ( race? maybe not) on Sunday and against some people with the latest or at least more up to date kit than my own. The result was I spent more time getting out of the way while being lapped than actually trying to be competitive, or at least it seemed that way to me.
Finishing two or three laps down on the others is not good fun even if your personal time is pretty good for you!
I have no intention of competing at nationals or spending a fortune on new kit so I have to either accept that I am not going to be competitive or give up altogether?. Or change classes again.

I feel sad you feel this way Ian,all we are experiancing is a transition period,just like we did with brushed,brushless and Lipo, Nimh's...peolple will always feel disadvantaged regardless,this is an unfortunate fact....is there an answer to tide us over ....."cheap speed" is a myth

[lesbaldry]

Cheap speed a Myth!.....or is it?(I might be eating my words here ;D)

Just for the club...There may well be some who want to jump from the Ansmans class to a fully blown comp chassis?? Chris Day comes to mind...theres no reason that a chassis of this sort could not be ran"perhaps in a seperate formula along side 17.5" with a Ansman 15t/23t motor (£7) with a limited price speedo(under £50?)...I feel this motor chassis combo will not only be very cheap but faster than you think??....whats your thoughts

[oldtimeracer]

No need to feel sad Les, fact of life I'm afraid.

I don't particularly worry about myself but I do worry about people trying to come into the sport locally and finding the amount they have to spend if they want to be competitive.

The answer is of course fixed classes but they do not ever prove very popular. I am sure eventually all this will blow over.

It was strange not to see many club members on Sunday though. Maybe there was a big meeting somewhere else? or are they all racing at other clubs these days?

[lesbaldry]

Yep racing "blues" chap...I know how you feel ::)lol

Matt and I were at Eastbournes STCC.Pete and Craig were booked in but "Bottled it" ;D

Have a think chaps about my Eco class sugestion,I have a funny feeling a 15t/23t Ansman cheap speedo combo wont be too far of the 17.5/ISTC pace? for a start the full blown race chassis will be easier to drive coupled to sensible speeds.....I dont mind testing the Idea as I have this kit...It Ill be good fun trying to get the best speeds,Probably shock a few too??

[oldtimeracer]

Would be OK to try Les but as the Eco class is already running 21 turn Ansmann motors and not getting 17 laps in I do wonder if they would be quick enough, even with a decent chassis.

[lesbaldry]

Mar 29, 2010 10:46:06 GMT @oldtimeracer said:

Would be OK to try Les but as the Eco class is already running 21 turn Ansmann motors and not getting 17 laps in I do wonder if they would be quick enough, even with a decent chassis.

I also cannot see anyone wanting to "downgrade" from brushless to brushed again. Might be OK for those just starting or progressing from the ECO class.

The Ansman chassis weighs a ton, is limited with gearing and extremely limited in the set up grip departments.Theres some powerful sealed can motors about,the 15t is wicked for the price of a set of silver brushes.
I cant think of another way to encourage new or old drivers into TC's...But think of this,is there better cheaper way to learn TC set up and driving skills? which is a very very big percentage of been fast with a top chassis in the first place regardless of how fast a NG speedo is...Unless a driver is doing 19 lappers with the current gear at the new weight(1350) a NG speedo would be a waste of money to them.

Progressing from the Eco class,thats my Idea Ian. the way things are going 21.5/NG is looking to be a good stock class but I bet a 15t Ansman/cheap speedo is just as fast on our Track??

[darrenoakley]

I agree with Les on this.I think that the ansmann and what I used the TT01 is a good starting chassis but a world apart in terms of tuning (suspension,Droop,ride hight, gearing,Etc Etc. from the touring cars like the 17.5 class. And just driving the thing round a track is only part of the fun.

Price wise there is a bit of a difference but not as much as you would think when Jason had his up in the for sale section recently for under £80.00.

[Reuben]

it maybe something we should look at introducing into the stock class? plus people can still use a 27t with a brushed speedo - which may be slower for the top guys but a cheaper alternative for newer racers. Maybe if we can find a sealed can to match the 17.5 pace it would be perfect, allowing the eco guys to use their same gear - just with a different motor, it might be something worth while, then it allows eco drivers to be able to mix in with stock and be competitive, Neil was definitely competitive with some stock on sunday, but just lacked straight line speed.

as for peoples pace on sunday, there did seem a large gap between Jason, Martin C and Mike V. vs the rest of the 17.5 field. Now these guys are all running stock specs, using an Mi4lp and simlar setups from Kit (nothing NG). Now I know they have put a lot of track time down recently and over the winter getting use to their cars at the weight and gearing to get the most out of their combos (which has taken weeks of back to backing and Jason doing crazy gearings to find out whats working) and are all running at the 1350 weight - to which they are all getting results for, they are all sharing their info aswell which is in turn making them all quicker quickly.

[yellowshark]

Mar 29, 2010 7:01:04 GMT @lesbaldry said:

Dont panic chaps ;D

NG is a wide term used for this type of speedo(internet/PC programable)....buying one does not necessarily give you Nitrous oxide injection ....even the various types of NG speedo varie in perfomance (as do motors) so splitting the classes(F1/F2) will be pointless as there is no definition on what make is faster,just like us drivers.....just my thoughts

My oringinal post was for those who like to keep racing close "on the day" by our friendly gentlemans agreement we normaly have,thats all ....whatever next? a 4 year old Cyclone TC in F2 and a MI4ep in F1 ....Oh and a T3/10.5 in F3 cause it has no grip and 10.5's toooo fast for our track (shark bait);D ;D ;D

;D ;D ;D Can we actually race with F1's and F2's Les? We will try to keep out of the way

Seriously; I think Ian N probably confused matters, unintentionally, by posting his point on this thread. As you say, F1/F2 has got nothing to do directly with ESCs but I do think it has merit. Whatever we say, most of the better 17.5 drivers will migrate to NGs And yes some of the less better drivers will buy one, regret it and coming running to you to turn it down.

The end result, broadly speaking, will be that the gap between better drivers and not so better drivers (excuse the English) will widen. This I think is where Ian’s point comes in. If you reintroduce F1/F2 into Stock it gives the less better driver, whether they be young Hamiltons or old codgers like us, a better chance at winning a trophy, getting in the top 5, whatever; yes I know the word championship is anathema to some, but not to all. Think of the achievement a newbie will feel when he/she is upgraded to F1. That surely is the cream on top of the fun cake.

[lesbaldry]

Mar 29, 2010 11:38:25 GMT @darrenoakley said:

I agree with Les on this.I think that the ansmann and what I used the TT01 is a good starting chassis but a world apart in terms of tuning (suspension,Droop,ride hight, gearing,Etc Etc. from the touring cars like the 17.5 class. And just driving the thing round a track is only part of the fun.

Price wise there is a bit of a difference but not as much as you would think when Jason had his up in the for sale section recently for under £80.00.

Sensible thinking Darren ...theres no point in been a missile between apexs,(10.5/NG)on our track.... Ya's aint learning a lot ...the extra speed is only making up for mistakes and bad set up's.

Reuben and Matt followed the "slower car learning " way 18 months ago...now I cant shake the buggers of my Tail

[Reuben]

Mar 29, 2010 11:58:14 GMT @lesbaldry said:

Reuben and Matt followed the "slower car learning " way 18 months ago...now I cant shake the buggers of my Tail

No no....its our tail your chassing . Ps I hope Taz hasnt learn't kill yet - otherwise im wearing a cup and shin-pads at the next meeting for my above comment ;D

[oldtimeracer]

Well if what Reuben says is correct and there was no "NG" type speedos etc on Sunday it must be that they are all much better than me. Such is life I guess, get old and lose the speed. ;D

I guess it's ECO for me in future or off road ;D

[yellowshark]

Mar 29, 2010 11:49:13 GMT Reuben said:

as for peoples pace on sunday, there did seem a large gap between Jason, Martin C and Mike V. vs the rest of the 17.5 field. Now these guys are all running stock specs, using an Mi4lp and simlar setups from Kit (nothing NG). Now I know they have put a lot of track time down recently and over the winter getting use to their cars at the weight and gearing to get the most out of their combos (which has taken weeks of back to backing and Jason doing crazy gearings to find out whats working) and are all running at the 1350 weight - to which they are all getting results for, they are all sharing their info aswell which is in turn making them all quicker quickly.

Nothing changes then Reuben. Unless you are in the top 0.5% of raw talent, the only way to get faster is hard graft.