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Post by miffed on Oct 15, 2011 9:45:35 GMT
I have thought long and hard about this one, I am concerned about opening up a can of worms, and I do not want to be devisive, but... I propose that Sunday races, including the Reality Racing Cup, have an hour between heats, with no additional allowance for lunch. Reasoning: In recent years the Club has done well in making the sport accessible to beginners – 17.5 before timing speedos and then Eco classes. However, I believe that senior drivers, ie experienced drivers who have moved up the ladder, are being forgotten. TC driving is not just about putting an RTR on the grid and off you go. It is as much about car setup. My view, and I know of some others, is that there is now just not enough time to consider and make setup changes without being under intense pressure. Add to that a significant crash which may have tweaked the car as well as breaking something then there is no way to get onto the grid in time for the next race with a sorted car, let alone tyres prepped properly. I remember when we all breathed a sigh of relief that the coming of Lipos and brushless would give us more time to to check the cars, get the setup right and be in good shape for the next race without the risk of a heart attack Part of the fun of TC racing is getting your car setup optimally for the race and as required try something that might improve things. There seems to be a desire now to get Sunday’s over and done with as quickly as possible (which I could understand if there was something decent to watch on the TV) ;D. Pete I'm totally with you 1000%! and just to add, importantly have time to spend chatting /helping new members,like we used to!! Racing is about improvement to your ability's on and off the track! not to stagnate week in week out and be rushed into heats with no time to relax....This is the main reason why other racers wont visit us and some existing members dont bother At the moment I cant honestly think of a reason why I would want to race at Bashley with certain RD's when I can race at an other track all day,have time to relax,alter set up,chat,see the latest products,watch others race,have hot food and drink track side, with clean toilets and compressed air to clean off the car.....and all for a fiver (members) tenner (non members) I'm also with you on the fixed FDR pete...It may seem a good idea but as you say it would favor certain motors and confuse a Newby. there is also the fitting of different rotors that will favor the fixed FDR plus its rather easy to alter the FDR by changing pulleys/belts and cheat this way....should the club go 17.5 blinky,just leave it at that! nice and simple!....but personaly I think for our track 17.5 Blinky is a step backward (see idea below for a step up) Should the club want to "spice up" the Pro-Eco class a little and leave the 21t to the RTR's it may be worth considering a sealed 15t and open up the restriction on ESC's. Aldershot is introducing and experimenting with a similar "Pro-Eco" class using the 15t and It ain't slow!! 18 laps!(on cheap rubber too) so that will probably be a very fast 19 at our track.....Should SHMCC want to go a step further with the "Eco side of things" they are also using in their new class treaded non belted tyres that are under a tenner! Les
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Post by Reuben on Oct 15, 2011 12:00:41 GMT
personally I think for club days, an hour gap is just a little too long, with 5 mins marshalling, 5 mins race and 3 min gap thats a 48 minute gap until you are back on the track again.
My personal favourite gap at club level is 35-40 minutes.
so 35 + 5 + 5 + 3 = 48 minute rounds with 35 minutes of tinkering. This is usually what I run when im RD.
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Post by justchris on Oct 15, 2011 12:02:53 GMT
Great points les, Not sure we can do much about the toilets apart from making sure they are emptied without fail weekly. Dont see a problem with an air line we have mains power, As pete has said car set up is just as important (and fun) as the raceing.Yourself once told me its a black art and you weren't wrong!!!!!! We have a great club with good people, to alter a few things to bring in new and old members alike can only be a good thing !!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by miffed on Oct 15, 2011 14:51:56 GMT
Great points les, Not sure we can do much about the toilets apart from making sure they are emptied without fail weekly. Dont see a problem with an air line we have mains power, As pete has said car set up is just as important (and fun) as the raceing.Yourself once told me its a black art and you weren't wrong!!!!!! We have a great club with good people, to alter a few things to bring in new and old members alike can only be a good thing !!!!!!!!!!! ;D....I was just making a point on what you get for your Buck as there was talk of putting up the race fees .for a half days racing??? .......A minimum of 45mins between heats is about right otherwise its a waste of time and effort......Go to any other serious club and if its less the RD gets moaned at,threatened with severe violence and pelted with rotton fruit and eggs Seriously its near impossible to "sort" a car correctly should you have a prob or need to change things in any less time.....AND!! a brushless motor needs to cool for at least 20mins,A "just raced" Lipo needs longer befor charging or you risk damage!
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Post by yellowshark on Oct 15, 2011 18:54:35 GMT
I propose that Sunday Club Championship and Reality Racing Cup championship meetings have an hour between races with no additonal time for lunch and that Sunday non-championship meetings have a minimumof 50 mins between races with no additonal time for lunch.
(NB this is a second proposal to my original, not a replacement, taking into account some of the comments. As I read it if both get voted "in" then my original proposal would take precedence as I have deliberately said a minimum of 50 mins in this one and therefore they are not contradictory. Happy to take an amendment to 48 mins Reuben ;D)
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Post by yellowshark on Oct 15, 2011 19:14:56 GMT
Chris re your idea on an additional heat. I would be happy to 2nd that but with my proposal the heat would not start until 4pm.
There are ways around it eg the additonal heat is not a championship race and has only 30 minutes preparation time.
Or maybe a 7th heat is only done on non-championship Sundays?
We did do a 7th race couple of years back (with an extra £1 on the entrance fee). The AGM voted for an extra final but somewhere along the line it got changed to a 4th qualie - I remember well because that peed me off. It did though fall out of favour; which is not to say it should not be proposed, I cannot remember why and we have plenty of new members since then.
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Neil
At the Thermometer
SHMCC Committee Member
Posts: 146
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Post by Neil on Oct 15, 2011 19:55:55 GMT
very easy to make comments regarding race directors.but as you can see we have asked people to come forward but no one has.therefore we have too take into account what are existing rds think and what time they can give,i would like to see those coming up with these suggestions coming up on sundays and seeing them through, This is not writtern to upset anyone its just the reality of the club being short of race directors,
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Post by Reuben on Oct 15, 2011 20:44:08 GMT
Pete, RR rounds are already run to a 50 minute timetable - which was decided with it being a more competitive sunday that the time would be needed . Les, our less-serious club respect our Race Directors, its a voluntary thing and if people started pi##ing on RD's then they just wouldnt do it and we would all just be stood like unorganised lemons. We will never be a big club - but we will be happy faces in a fields on a rat-run track having as much fun, and I kinda like that. apart from that, I dont have much to add, except lets not make the days tooooo long, I like a 3pm finish
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Post by miffed on Oct 16, 2011 17:07:48 GMT
We did do a 7th race couple of years back (with an extra £1 on the entrance fee). The AGM voted for an extra final but somewhere along the line it got changed to a 4th qualie - I remember well because that peed me off. It did though fall out of favour; which is not to say it should not be proposed, I cannot remember why and we have plenty of new members since then. That was my idea Pete.The club was short of funds so I suggested the extra quid at the AGM... BUT!! I wanted something for my extra buck,an extra Qually or final!! and it got voted in....Guess what It never happened for any length,the race meets just got shorter and more compressed to please the monority!.....and some wonder why I'm miffed Reuben "our less serious club"?? "we will never be a big club"??...Sorry but befor your time and 99% of the current members SHMCC was once prety serious and prety big!......No one's p***ing on any of the RD's unless the "cap fits" but I pay good money for my membership and race fee so I expect value for money!!! Yes value for money on the day!not to arrive on a Sunday for a pleasurable days racing to find I'm hurried along to be finished by 1.30 I may as well go else where,where I'm guaranteed a full days racing for less money AND im not the only one who thinks this way!! so I suggest that SHMCC stop P***ing on its paying members befor you loose more than you think ......Again ask your selves this,why are we not visited by other club's members.
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Neil
At the Thermometer
SHMCC Committee Member
Posts: 146
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Post by Neil on Oct 16, 2011 18:58:04 GMT
great days racing thanks to all certainly enjoyed the longer day in the sun
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Post by chrishall1976 on Oct 16, 2011 22:50:52 GMT
i was coming back racing soon on sunday out doors but i hate the wait beween race what the hell do you need to do to your car to need all that time. maybe i should just sell all my things and not come back.
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ianlloyd
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Post by ianlloyd on Oct 17, 2011 9:35:40 GMT
Can someone just confirm please. Are we talking at the end of a set of heats we have a 1 hour break before the next set of heats starts or are we talking 1 hour from the end of YOUR race. It seems to me that if I am in the first heat of 5 and we have an hour break after the end of the 5 heats I could be standing around for getting on for 2 hours. This does seem a little bit excessive to me.
I can understand that some people want a bit longer between heats and some people do not so there surely has to be a compromise somewhere.
Also adding an extra race/heat/final/qualy whatever will just make it longer and not actually help the timing.
There are obviously people who race at other clubs and in other championships that would like to use their time at Bashley as a testing and set up time so they can be more competitive when they race away. Some of us do not do this though and so we come to Bashley to enjoy the racing there and in the main do not play around a lot with set up etc, particularly if you race in Eco or Pro Eco so those people will always suffer with long waits between races and this will surely push them away.
I don't say I have an answer but you have to look at ALL members and not just a few.
Are we saying we would get a lot more people racing at Bashley if we had a longer time between races? I am not convinced.
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Post by yellowshark on Oct 17, 2011 10:07:49 GMT
Hi Ian
My proposal was on the basis that if your Q1 leaves the line at 10:15 then your Q2 leaves the line at 11:15.
IE I am not asking for 1 hour for setup
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Post by yellowshark on Oct 17, 2011 10:11:13 GMT
very easy to make comments regarding race directors.but as you can see we have asked people to come forward but no one has.therefore we have too take into account what are existing rds think and what time they can give,i would like to see those coming up with these suggestions coming up on sundays and seeing them through, This is not writtern to upset anyone its just the reality of the club being short of race directors, Hi Neil, can I just make it absolutely clear that my proposal was not directected at RDs - it was a request for a change in club rules at the AGM To be honest I was not aware - if indeed it is the case - that race times are at the choice of the RD. I had assumed that race schedules were set by the club and implemented by the RD? ?
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ianlloyd
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Post by ianlloyd on Oct 17, 2011 10:15:22 GMT
Hi Ian My proposal was on the basis that if your Q1 leaves the line at 10:15 then your Q2 leaves the line at 11:15. IE I am not asking for 1 hour for setup Does that not depend on the number of heats though?
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Post by martinchallis on Oct 17, 2011 11:52:22 GMT
The issue of gap between rounds would disappear if there were more members attending meetings.
I remember when i first starting coming down there would usually be 4 heats - i usually turn up on a Sunday hoping there is 8 people.
I may be completely wrong but we didnt loose all of those people because of bumps and gaps between rounds, and most of the names im thinking about cannot be found at other circuits.
Along the line somewhere something went wrong and we have lost a huge amount of following...
Unfortunately our track in its current state cannot cater cater for "big shot" drivers - i think bashley would be wise to concentrate on retaining its core members, and attracting youth into our hobby it is the only way it is going to sustain itself....
I would like to add that nothing makes me happier than seeing a young lad that has managed pester dad into buying him a new touring car!
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Neil
At the Thermometer
SHMCC Committee Member
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Post by Neil on Oct 17, 2011 16:16:24 GMT
this debate can go on forever i suggest we discuss this once again at the agm. no problem pete i know what you ment,
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Post by miffed on Oct 17, 2011 20:12:18 GMT
The issue of gap between rounds would disappear if there were more members attending meetings I may be completely wrong but we didnt loose all of those people because of bumps and gaps between rounds, and most of the names im thinking about cannot be found at other circuits. Unfortunately our track in its current state cannot cater cater for "big shot" drivers - i think bashley would be wise to concentrate on retaining its core members, and attracting youth into our hobby it is the only way it is going to sustain itself.... A respectable gap between heats is still a respectable gap regardless of attendance numbers,should there be low attendance the race days time/heats should be spread/extended to give people value for money. Big shot drivers where did that come from? unlike "some" I do the circuits and chat to the average club driver and top driver alike who I have raced with for many years.they would love to come to our track,but not to be called "big shots" but for a fun day and the banter we all enjoy,and hopefully we and "some" may well learn something from the "big shots" .....but why should they travel for a over priced shortened days racing that can occur without notice depending apon the "whim" of the RD. Consentrate on core members and atract youth into our hobby hmmm let me give you a fine example,read on! Remember Shane Rudge and family (team Photon) that SHMCC no longer see... As a total newby and prospecting member he was happy to pay the non members race day price for himself and his two lads to have a full "good day out" to learn the ropes, unfortunatly on more than one ocasion he found his full priced "good day out" rushed and cut short with very little time to learn and prep his own car let alone his lads(1.30 finish).So how would you feel and how the hell can SHMCC/ RD justify charging any family or racer the full price for a suposed "days" racing .......Am I angry about this? hell yes! Im the core member who spent many hours at my home helping this keen family learn and understand TC's ....and I introduced him to what I thought was a family club! and not a club that kissed the rear of the minority....He WAS going to join :- If an RD needs a "shortened" race day then SHMCC need to advertise this fact and adjust the race fees to suit ....Then the serious racer can avoid theses dates should he need too and importantly not waste his hobby day ......I for one have no intentions of taking a gamble on how long or stupidly rushed my race day will be!as Pete stated half the fun is fiddling with the car between heats to learn and improve and this takes time to do correctly ....or you will stagnate
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 17, 2011 21:17:52 GMT
as a commitee member i personnelly feel you have a point in some of what you have quoted,and feel perhaps im not doing the job as well as exspected, with that said i would be willing to step aside and let les run the club from on the commitee rather than itrying to run it from the forum.this is not ment to upset and sorry jf it does but having put so much into the club i feel quite hurt that this sort of thing can be said of the club from the sidelines as we have always invited members to come along to our meetings to voice there opinion and help move the club in the right direction,
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Post by miffed on Oct 17, 2011 21:20:48 GMT
as a commitee member i personnelly feel you have a point in some of what you have quoted,and feel perhaps im not doing the job as well as exspected, with that said i would be willing to step aside and let les run the club from on the commitee rather than itrying to run it from the forum.this is not ment to upset and sorry jf it does but having put so much into the club i feel quite hurt that this sort of thing can be said of the club from the sidelines as we have always invited members to come along to our meetings to voice there opinion and help move the club in the right direction, Run the club from the side lines......VERY GOOD! thats funny and pathetic.....I have done my bit for the club way befor your time,and I too have done much for the club ...at my own personal expense too.......Take a look at the FACT's and poor atendance,I could give you a list of names that think this way but I wont, Ill let their future absence do the talking,.......I have been a member of this club for many years and if I was not passionate about its well being I would not respond ....I wear my heart on my sleeve and say it how I see it,YOU HAVE AN RD THATS UPSETTING MEMBERS is that plain enough.....your comment has just lost a long standing member!
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Post by yellowshark on Oct 17, 2011 23:53:40 GMT
Does that not depend on the number of heats though? Hi Ian, no my proposal is not based on any number of heats. This has been mentioned in another post but to me this is a red herring. If you need X minutes to prep the car you need x minutes irrespective of the number of heats. The only difference is that if there are 8 heats there is no discussion, you need 64 minutes to get through them This is how long it takes me to prep my tyres in relation to the 45 minute cycle, doing what I consider to be the minimum to do the job properly. race 5 Recovery to pit 1 bodyshell and battery off/out 1 Wheels off 1 clean Tyres 1 apply additive 2 air time 10 tyres to warmers 1 warming 20 fit wheels 1 2 min warning 2 Total 45 As you can see it just fits but do not forget that I have an extra 5 minutes because whilst I would love to help, I only rarely marshall because I do not have 5 mins slack time. The above is an absolute minimum. My preferred additive, which I use at the regional events and the Nats because there is time, needs more than 10+20 minutes. So any "single" driver doing the job properly needs more than 45 mins. I do not see why I or others who want to prep their car properly should be penalised - we never used to be. I was not going to raise the point about families and Dad prepping more than one car because I did not want to use my situation to support my point because I believe it applies to all "single" drivers who want to prep their TC properly. If dad has to prep two cars then you can add another 5 mins to the 45 mins above. It did not apply to me on Sunday because we agreed that Craig would take responsibility for this so I could focus on Ross's car. On Sunday I felt under pressure all day, as I am sure was obvious to many who heard my outburst - which I subsequently apologised for. I enjoyed the racing immensely, it was great for me to see the car and Craig performing so well and our support car taking out any drivers that were in front of Craig ;D But the stress I had in getting the cars to the track on time spoilt the whole day for me - as far as I am concerned Club Championship races are, for the want of a word, important and I am not prepared to skimp on setup, especially tyre setup which we all know is just about the most important aspect of setting up a car. Of course the above is only one aspect of time needed for setup but I mention it because it is easily measurable and is consistent for each race whereas setup checks and changes are not.
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Post by Reuben on Oct 18, 2011 6:40:52 GMT
Can I echo Pete's point that a good 20 minutes heat is vital for a good race with the power these motors are using. F2 Sunday I didn't get a proper heat cycle through due to time and needing to adjust the car and ultimately it meant being slow into corner 1, conceeding the 2nd corner and ultimately coming 2nd. So 20 minutes + 20 for tinkering getting back from track.
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Post by yellowshark on Oct 18, 2011 8:25:34 GMT
Ian, you are not being controversial, you are just noting what you want from racing and indeed you are homing in on the real problem.
We used to be a Touring Car club (on Sundays) – indeed the club’s website still says this. But quite rightly over the past couple of years we have added additional classes to attract new participants the sport as we felt that timing speedos had made the stock class too fast for a newbie.
Now I am not sure I understand why Eco classes can get away with less tyre prep – they use the same wheels/tyres don’t they? But I accept that and I also happily accept that your good self and no doubt some others enjoy not having to worry too much about prepping the car.
But equally the TC drivers need to prep their cars IF they want to get the best from them.
If you go back to my original post this is the point I was inferring but I did not want to be so blunt. In my view the TC drivers are suffering because less time is needed by the Eco classes.
The TC drivers want to have a relaxed time and some fun with nice friendly people too!!
But we don’t have the time if we want to start each race with a sorted car. I have tried to recognise the differences in my 2nd proposal which places more emphasis on the championship rounds only.
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ianlloyd
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Post by ianlloyd on Oct 18, 2011 8:54:12 GMT
You are correct Pete. Eco and Pro Eco do not need as much time and prep as you lot, at least i know I do not. I guess it is because we are a lot slower so nothing is quite as important as the driving. However what we (Eco and Pro Eco) need should not detract in anyway from what others need. We certainly do NOT want a "them and us" scenario here. The truth is as you say, different needs for different classes.
While I am not over the moon about it I have to say that if you lot need an hour between races then OK lets try it. I do not belive it will bring lots of others to the club for a minute but I am eager to be proved wrong on that score. You will just have to accept that if I do not have enough to do on my car I will be spending more time annoying you lot. I am sure that will make you want less time between races!!
Maybe a solution is for Eco and Pro Eco to run 8 minute races? That would give everyone a bit more time between heats and make the Eco racers feel like they are getting more out of it. After an 8 minute race I reckon they/we also will need more car prep!
As you know I have not been racing on Sundays much recently, not that I don't want too, just circumstances, so I do feel I am in a difficult position here. It needs more comments from "regular" racers really.
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Post by darrenoakley on Oct 18, 2011 10:53:42 GMT
I like the idea of 8 minute heats Ian. Also I have a genuine suggestion for members that would like a longer break between rounds. If they did some Race Directing they could guarantee the gap was long enough.And as with a short gap between rounds the director for the day could let racers know it was going to be a long day on the forum before hand. As I said above this is not a "come on get off your butts and do some RDing post " but more of a possible solution to the problems. Having said that I think all members should take a turn at doing it sometime. On the racing costs side of things my thoughts are shown in my proposal of non member prices. As for gap between heats I personally am happy with 45min or an hour on a full days racing. Let's face it we get it done a lot quicker on a summer evening and that's when ground temps are lower. I don't think that cost or time gap will change member numbers drastically though.
One thing I do know is we have a great club regardless of the other issues and do have to be gratefully that the usual faces help behind the scenes. Without this help Bashley couldn't run at all. Let alone a full day on a Sunday.
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Post by yellowshark on Oct 18, 2011 10:54:14 GMT
You are right Ian we certainly do not want and neither do we have at the moment a "them and us". TC needs Eco because that is where the future TC drivers come from. Eco needs TC because that predominantly is where the advice comes from and of course it is something for the Eco newbies (as against you old codgers ) to aspire to. So come on Eco drivers lets have some comments on Ian's idea of a longer race. Now that does not actually help the TC drivers' prep because who is marshalling one of the elongated Eco heats! I have another idea which might help - given the low number of heats we are currently experiencing. Increase the length of time between heats (or at least after a TC heat) to allow the TC drivers to prep their tyres to the point where they are starting their open air part of the cycle. My timings in my previous post suggest 6 mins after the 5 min bell goes plus a dash back to marshalling positions plus of course the racedoes not finish at the 5 min mark so probably 7 mins in all is called for. It will not make any differnece for me but it should make a big difference for the "single" drivers. I am not quite sure where that would leave us on the battery charging front
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ianlloyd
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Post by ianlloyd on Oct 18, 2011 12:20:47 GMT
Actually Pete it may well help you TC racers if the Eco's have longer heats AND it was coupled with your suggestion of a slightly longer gap between races. You would have time possibly to get the tyres prepped or batteries on charge etc before you need to go and marshall. (Having said that i thought you did all this for your brood and they just went straight out and marshalled? so should not affect you.)
It is a pain sometimes, having to go straight back out to marshall. Even for me as I like to get the motor cooler going, remove the battery etc before I go out so maybe making the gap 2 to 3 minutes between races would make that better. I would certainly be in favour of that.
We have been indoctrinated in the "dump the car and run out to marshall" syndrome and I know that a serious national type race you have to do just that but we are not talking that kind of race, we are looking at a Sunday club meeting where we are all trying to have some fun.
We also need to ask Dave or someone that knows the ins and outs of our computer system if different heats can be run for different lengths of time or whether it has to be set the same for all heats. ( 5 minutes or 8 minutes etc).
I have to admit that 8 minute Eco and/or Pro Eco races would be interesting. There is so much power in modern batteries that these times are most certainly easily achievable.
I will speak to you later about the "old codgers" comment!
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Post by darrenoakley on Oct 18, 2011 12:34:00 GMT
I think a bigger gap between racing and marshalling would be better all round including wed nights. I like to get all my bits squared away if possible when I come off the track . Get the battery on charge and additive on. This is a particular point with 12th scale as the additive time is so important.
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Post by yellowshark on Oct 18, 2011 13:52:18 GMT
Correct Ian it would not help me particulalry I think, the idea was for the majority of other TC drivers. It would let me help out on the marshalling front though I suspect.
You are right about the dump the kit and get back out to marshal syndrome does date from the days of fuller grids and the need to get through them to end at a suitable time. If there were 6 or 7 heats we would probably need a 3 minute turnaround but then we wouldn't have this thread!
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ianlloyd
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Post by ianlloyd on Oct 18, 2011 15:39:06 GMT
You are right about the dump the kit and get back out to marshal syndrome does date from the days of fuller grids and the need to get through them to end at a suitable time. If there were 6 or 7 heats we would probably need a 3 minute turnaround but then we wouldn't have this thread! Your point about not needing this discussion if we still had 6 or 7 heats is very valid. Which came first the lack of people racing or the shortening of the race day? One point about this though is the lack of peoples comments or the fact that many of the club members either do not frequent the forum or do not feel they have anything to say. It just seems there are the same few people driving this forward when really it would be nice to know the feelings of the majority. Maybe there is a need to bring back the club newsletter? On a different note..... If the TC crowd are deserting the club maybe it should be considered that the track is returned to it's original use as an off road track? It does seem that off road is more popular at this moment in time. If that does not stir up some comments I don't know what will
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