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Post by yellowshark on Mar 14, 2009 16:57:10 GMT
Well a major milestone then, we had our 1st brushless outing today, with a Nosram 10.5. Progressed up the powerband and gearing carefully and ended up with 5.13 FDR, power setting of 7 and max temp of 52 without fan, so still a bit to go on the Nosram, settings were 1,7,3,2. No problems anywhere except for the driver and Craig ended up lapping a good 1.5+ secs a lap faster than the 19T when we ran that a few Saturdays ago. A lot lower lap consistency though. Some practice needed to tame the extra punch and Dad will need to spend some time on setup too; the rear needs some work to make it planted out of the corners.
But a great shakedown afternoon and if Craig was on his normal roll of averaging a second a lap slower in practice than on race day, the black one is going to be flying.
And with nothing to skim, I am going to have a lay in the bath with a glass of plonk ;D
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Post by TryHard on Mar 14, 2009 21:23:30 GMT
Pete, You mention in the other thread that the rear didn't look as planted... this is more likely related to the brushless motor, rather than the lightweight driveshafts...
On another point.. presonally, I think you should change the speedo settings to more like 1, 8, 0, 2. Setting three is for initial brake NOT brake power, and as such, you'll have a quite a high instant brake. I personally also prefer zero drag brake (my settings would usually be 1, 8, 0, 0), as it can be easier to keep corner speed up if you can drive it (bit like fitting a one-way).
Ed
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 14, 2009 23:12:09 GMT
On another point.. presonally, I think you should change the speedo settings to more like 1, 8, 0, 2. Setting three is for initial brake NOT brake power, and as such, you'll have a quite a high instant brake. I personally also prefer zero drag brake (my settings would usually be 1, 8, 0, 0), as it can be easier to keep corner speed up if you can drive it (bit like fitting a one-way). Ed Thanks for that Ed appreciated. Braking is not something we have done a lot with running 27T & Craig's style. The initial setting was 1,5,2,1. The 2 being the default and as I read it the 1 in mode 4 replicating the natural tendency for a brushed motor to slow more than a brushed in neutral - we never ran trail braking. Craig found that in neutral the car was not slowing as much as he was used to so I upped from 1 to 2 (thumbs up from Craig) and he found he was having to push the stick a long way to get some hard braking so I upped it to 3. The next thing I need to do is check the settings on the transmitter for braking cos they would have been set 2 years ago! To be honest I wasn't really sure what mode 3 did - the term automatic braking in the instructions is not very helpful!!! A case of practice and trial and error over the next few weeks and a natter with people like you who now what the settings do
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 14, 2009 23:27:30 GMT
Pete, You mention in the other thread that the rear didn't look as planted... this is more likely related to the brushless motor, rather than the lightweight driveshafts... Ed What is it about the brushless that would tend to cause that Ed? I didn't spend any time on playing with setup apart from a coupel of correetcive things, we wanted to get the gearing and ESC settings sorted. I have to say though that we had done around 140 laps before putting the drive shafts and axles on and it was a noticeable change. Then again those demn 24s might have gone off ;D ;D
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Post by Reuben on Mar 15, 2009 16:41:25 GMT
brushless motors do coast alot more than brushed so why restrict the drag brake back to brushed standard....
Use this as an advantage to carry more corner speed without having to accelerate and heat the motor more..... Craig may need to adjust his braking points and throttle off points.
just checked my speedo and its at 1, 8, 4, 1. Which I believe is 4 for stick brake and 1 for drag brake...
hth
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Post by lesbaldry on Mar 16, 2009 8:03:02 GMT
Engine/drag brake feel will vary between motor makes and wind,this setting is a personal feel,I like to feel the car slow some off power,It helps the car turn in too!!free wheeling onto corners feels very wrong to me??..if your free wheeling into corners or not braking you aint going fast enough ;D Mostly my ISTC is set at 1 or 3 with max stick brake..be awear of using to much drag/engine braking in low grip the car may swap ends into corners off power
My Novaks seem to need a lower setting for the same engine braking and max brake feel compared to my other makes.
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Post by TryHard on Mar 16, 2009 12:38:47 GMT
the third setting is for the INITIAL brake, not the stick brake.... it just gives more brake effect when you hit the stick. Overall brake power will still be the same. Personally I like the most linear brake possible, so have it set too 0, and also no drag brake, as I prefer to do the drag brake myself, quick tap on the way in
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Post by Reuben on Mar 16, 2009 13:01:56 GMT
sorry for thread hijack Pete... but ed/les.
Initial brake? does that then effect the braking curve? so my setting of 4 means as i pull on the brake i get a large increase for the first part, which then tails off....
drag brake slows motor down when your stick is centred.
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Post by lesbaldry on Mar 16, 2009 13:27:15 GMT
the third setting is for the INITIAL brake, not the stick brake.... it just gives more brake effect when you hit the stick. HIT THE STICK??? thats why I call it STICK BRAKE!!! ..Linear feel...max setting with negative expo I find smoother...setting 1/2 nothing seems to happen till your thumb reaches the back of the set then it come in with a bang!!"too late sorry ;D" Yes Reubs drag/engine brake is at neutral stick,ie off power automaticaly...Initial brake is activated by moving the stick "STICK BRAKE"
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 16, 2009 13:40:35 GMT
the third setting is for the INITIAL brake, not the stick brake.... it just gives more brake effect when you hit the stick. setting 1/2 nothing seems to happen till your thumb reaches the back of the set then it come in with a bang!!"too late sorry ;D" "STICK BRAKE" Tthat is exactly where Craig was coming from, nothing happened until his thumb reaches the back of the set. So I upped it to 3 and he was happy. I assume but dont know cos I have never gone there, that individual transmitetr settings will influnce what people say on this one in terms of what the ISTC setting should be.
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 16, 2009 13:48:45 GMT
Yes Reubs drag/engine brake is at neutral stick,ie off power automaticaly...Initial brake is activated by moving the stick "STICK BRAKE" I have to say (as a non RC driver) that I have never understood this drag break thing. If I or Michael are driving fast we don't coast into corners letting the flywheel etc slow us down. We leave our braking as late as possible, brake as hard as needed, then foot back onto throttle (or not if using two foot braking) and control the car on throttle before planting it. I sort of appreciate that with a 27T, neglible punch, you need to carry the corner speed and that a modified technique (and line maybe)is perhaps beneficial but I would thought that with pro-stock and mod a more real life approach would be the norm?
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Post by lesbaldry on Mar 16, 2009 14:19:13 GMT
Spot on Pete..no one with any sence races or coasts a car into a bend in neutral...for me it the same in RC,we have allways had some sort of engine braking "depending apon wind/magnet strength" with brushed..but now brushless have very little rotating resistance we seem to need a drag brake setting to mimic what we have been used too?!?...Its all a personal feel!
For my speedo min to max stick brake settings make the brake come in with a bang at the start or end of the stick travel depending apon settings..Pete try this it works for me,set your stick brake to mid or near max setting but add 70% neg expo too back stick trany setting this will soften the feel and make it feel more progresive "linear"
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Post by gwesty on Mar 16, 2009 19:36:01 GMT
hi , i must be doing it all wrong then , i never use drag brake ! , that way u can feel what the car is doing more on entry to the corner , if you have to slam the brakes on to slow enough then your on the power too late ! set your speedo settings so that the more stick you give it the more brake action you get glenn
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 16, 2009 21:23:50 GMT
hi , i must be doing it all wrong then There you go then Glen, you can be better than you already are SHMCC forum is where all the best tips are Seriously the way I read it you and Les and saying the same thing are you not?
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Post by TryHard on Mar 17, 2009 9:29:56 GMT
Spot on Pete..no one with any sence races or coasts a car into a bend in neutral...for me it the same in RC,we have allways had some sort of engine braking "depending apon wind/magnet strength" with brushed..but now brushless have very little rotating resistance we seem to need a drag brake setting to mimic what we have been used too?!?...Its all a personal feel! Agree with that entirely Les... it's all about personal feel Personally, I've purposefully trained myself to use no drag brake, as I can't get my head round why you'd want to waste power (to mimic the drag brake effect, a brushless requires power to work, wasting power for accelerating etc), when I can operate it quite simply with a light tap to the brake on corner entry. It's not full stick (unless required), just enough to get myself fully off the throttle, and lightly on the brake to trim some speed. In affect, using my thumb as the trail brake (to give it the correct term ) Having said that... the third setting is not something I've played much with... I've always, to date, dialled it out fully, prefering to use the brakes as fully linear. Again, it's a feel thing isn't it... I'm not a fan of using huge amounts of expo on anything (max I've ever used on the steering is -20%, and only as a last resort mid run!), as it generally feels artifical to me, and you can feel the change over points as well. But then again, that's just me
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Post by lesbaldry on Mar 17, 2009 12:32:00 GMT
Spot on Pete..no one with any sence races or coasts a car into a bend in neutral...for me it the same in RC,we have allways had some sort of engine braking "depending apon wind/magnet strength" with brushed..but now brushless have very little rotating resistance we seem to need a drag brake setting to mimic what we have been used too?!?...Its all a personal feel! Agree with that entirely Les... it's all about personal feel Personally, I've purposefully trained myself to use no drag brake, as I can't get my head round why you'd want to waste power (to mimic the drag brake effect, a brushless requires power to work, wasting power for accelerating etc), when I can operate it quite simply with a light tap to the brake on corner entry. Now Im cofused.... my low setting for drag/engine braking to give the feel "mimic"of a brushed motors natural off power braking effect is not wasting power,what packs are you useing ;D,its simply doing automatically for me what you have to do manually "gentle dab on the stick on the way in" ...less stick movement ! it gets me on the power early..and I need any advantage with reaction time these days Personally I dont like the free wheeling effect the brushless gives,especially in the higher stock winds (very weak)...we have always had gentle natural engine braking with brushed,I like it and it feels correct to me! Perhaps I am wrong in my approach to how a RC car should drive or feel,I just try to make the car feel like full size with natural engine braking "BL's drag brake setting"...as I have already said we always had it with brushed..and quite powerfull too in low wind mods!!! Just a thought ..if there is next to no natural engine braking(BL's) and you enter a corner that normally does not need brakes(with BR'ed) this means to me that you will have to apply some sort of braking "stick brake" or scrub off speed with steering?....using stick brake can leave you late for getting on the power and scrubbing speed off with excess steering just aint the way to drive!! ..please dont bite my head off ,its just my view Ps I dont think you will find many good IC circuit drivers not useing drag brake to mimic engine braking..if they arnt the chances are they will be useing a one way bearing in the clutch bell to give TRUE engine braking
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Post by TryHard on Mar 17, 2009 15:05:32 GMT
Not saying your wrong at all les. It's just different drivers, different styles. What is using power (wasting is probably too strong a word), is that to mimc the natural drag brake of a brushed with a brushless, the speedo has to pump the motor with reverse (effecitvely) power... unlike in a brushed, as even with no power, there is a natural slow down due to the magnets holding resisting the stack moving. Hopefully that makes sense My other justification is, why bother going to the extent of making our drivetrains as free as possible...and then having it slow down automatically for us... As for the free wheeling, again it's a personal feel thing. I've now adjusted my style to suit as well as my setup. Basically it involves making the car have a lot of steering, so it can carry the corner speed provided by the lower drag brake. It's much like driving a car with a one-way (but with better brakes, hehe). I found that with my blue beasty at carpet wars, it was much faster to drive with no drag brake. Every time I tried the drag brake, I found the car was slowing too much into and through the corner. Turned it off, and reverting to tapping when needed, and it was fine again. No head biting here... unless it's a jelly baby!
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Post by lesbaldry on Mar 17, 2009 16:21:52 GMT
Not saying your wrong at all les. It's just different drivers, different styles. What is using power (wasting is probably too strong a word), is that to mimc the natural drag brake of a brushed with a brushless, the speedo has to pump the motor with reverse (effecitvely) power... unlike in a brushed, as even with no power, there is a natural slow down due to the magnets holding resisting the stack moving. Hopefully that makes sense My other justification is, why bother going to the extent of making our drivetrains as free as possible...and then having it slow down automatically for us... Ed in all the years of me useing BL and BR'ed " I never knew that"...Ill just have to suck harder on them there eggs Free drive trains : ,correct me if I am wrong here aid greater top speed and acceleration under "power" not during your manual or my automatic mimicked engine braking,are they not the same end efect??...hmmmm I do believe that engine braking stabilizes a car into a corner by creating more "resistance" grip...ever tried driving fast into a bend in neutral,scary stuff!!....the same principal should?? work for a model car...may do, may not
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Post by gwesty on Mar 17, 2009 17:04:10 GMT
les , ur not wrong for using drag brake , but for me i feel that with motor drag the car will slow in the wrong place in the corner ! most rc racers dont realise that there is a middle part of their transmitter !!! almost like an on off switch , flat out to the corner slam on brakes steer then flat out again . i use power through a corner to keep the car on line
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 17, 2009 18:24:30 GMT
Blimey,just shows you how easy it is to get the wrong end of the stick and disappear into a confused discussion . Les, yesterday I read your post as saying you did not use drag brake. Ultimately I guess its what feels good to oneself (important) but in principle it seems to me that if you use drag brake you are not decelerating fast enough and losing ground on someone who is. Ed strictly speaking I don't think drag braking is trail braking. I get the impression, and if that is wrong it negates my point, that drag braking is going into neutral and letting the brushed engine slow you down. Trail braking is about applying the brakes later and keeping them on in a reducing (trail off) manner as you enter the corner, so you are carrying more speed in to the corner due to your greater velocity before you turn in. I can see that if you enter a corner in neutral then the drag braking of a Brushed motor would have the same effect at that point because you are are still braking, but you would have come off the power earlier on the corner approach vs someone that was using true trail braking. That is theory from me, I have never had the balls or the ego to try it in real life ;D
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Post by lesbaldry on Mar 17, 2009 19:19:12 GMT
Perhaps us lot are getting confused with each other Pete as Ed and I state it IS a personal feel...you may have confused my drag brake as a fierce setting that I use to slow the car down into any corner,thats not the case Pete purely as a gentle retardation of carried speed and stick brake is used to stand the car on its nose into hair pins or as Ed said a quick stab to get the nose in. I have tried 0 drag brake and I dont like the feel,the higher stock winds "run on" to easily for me on some short tracks so I dial in a bit more!.tracks like Aldershot,Cotswolds a 10.5 and I expect a Mod too will have plenty of natural retardation for me(zero setting)...I feel a little dialed in natural drag/engine braking to feel like a brushed motor can help some on short squirty tracks in low'ish grip especially when you get "out of shape" in say a dog leg or "S'es"..I hope that clears up my views Pete old chap,where did I say I never used mimicked engine/drag brake??..Are you thinking about Ed.
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Post by TryHard on Mar 17, 2009 19:40:02 GMT
Blimey,just shows you how easy it is to get the wrong end of the stick and disappear into a confused discussion . Les, yesterday I read your post as saying you did not use drag brake. Ultimately I guess its what feels good to oneself (important) but in principle it seems to me that if you use drag brake you are not decelerating fast enough and losing ground on someone who is. Ed strictly speaking I don't think drag braking is trail braking. I get the impression, and if that is wrong it negates my point, that drag braking is going into neutral and letting the brushed engine slow you down. Trail braking is about applying the brakes later and keeping them on in a reducing (trail off) manner as you enter the corner, so you are carrying more speed in to the corner due to your greater velocity before you turn in. I can see that if you enter a corner in neutral then the drag braking of a Brushed motor would have the same effect at that point because you are are still braking, but you would have come off the power earlier on the corner approach vs someone that was using true trail braking. That is theory from me, I have never had the balls or the ego to try it in real life ;D In some respects Pete, any braking we do is drag braking, simply as the way we brake the the car is via it's motive force, i.e. the motor. Which is unlike a real car (or an IC car, les ) which has independant braking systems. For a real car, drag braking would be by the engine braking, and the trail braking induced by hitting the middle pedal... However, I've always considered trail more of a technique rather than a defined part of braking... so I guess in some respects I'm agreeing with you... argh, I've confused myself!!! ;D
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Post by lesbaldry on Mar 17, 2009 19:53:00 GMT
les , ur not wrong for using drag brake , but for me i feel that with motor drag the car will slow in the wrong place in the corner ! most rc racers dont realise that there is a middle part of their transmitter !!! almost like an on off switch , flat out to the corner slam on brakes steer then flat out again . i use power through a corner to keep the car on line I know what you mean,thats a technique used in 1/8 IC..Steer the car with the throtle(rear spool'ed)...any RWD drivers should be experts at this too
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Post by lesbaldry on Mar 17, 2009 20:18:06 GMT
[/quote] In some respects Pete, any braking we do is drag braking, simply as the way we brake the the car is via it's motive force, i.e. the motor. Which is unlike a real car (or an IC car, les ) which has independant braking systems. For a real car, drag braking would be by the engine braking, and the trail braking induced by hitting the middle pedal... However, I've always considered trail more of a technique rather than a defined part of braking... so I guess in some respects I'm agreeing with you... argh, I've confused myself!!! ;D [/quote] A circuit 10th/1/8th IC car has its "independent??" disc brake normally on a Ley shaft (roughly where our spur/ley shaft sits)and still retards the car via the drive train through the belts or shaft to the drive shafts and wheels,same stick/drag brake physics/principal as our 10th TC's apply ;D Not a trick question!! I always thought drag/trail brake were the same just different terminology ie neutral stick induced braking??.."to drag or to trail somthing? "...now im confused dot com ;D
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 17, 2009 23:15:29 GMT
Not a trick question!! I always thought drag/trail brake were the same just different terminology ie neutral stick induced braking??.."to drag or to trail somthing? "...now im confused dot com ;D[/quote] Les as Ed rightly says trail braking is a actually a technique rather than a braking stage. In reality in 1/10 given the relative seriously small size of most of the corners, I suspect it is somewhat academic. When I watch you guys go round it is all so fast that I am sure much of it must be natural instinct and split second reaction. At the end of the day the principles of the later you leave your braking to maximise velocity the better and the smoother you make your braking so as not to upset the attitude of the car the better. But it makes for a good discussion ;D
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Post by lesbaldry on Mar 18, 2009 7:58:04 GMT
Good discussion,that it does Pete!..now we are all wondering who's doing thing right?.... another set up conundrum to worry about...any one for taking up slot racing ;D ;D ;D
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Post by otr on Mar 18, 2009 8:30:55 GMT
Well for what it's worth. I used to run drag brake all the time which for me was having brakes come on slightly when stick is in middle/neutral position. However for me I have found it better/faster over the years to go with having no drag brake but just normal hit the stick to brake mode. I tend to brake quite hard but cannot now get on with having the car automatically brake every time I central the sticks. I do however have my brakes set so they only need a fairly small amount of stick to apply them initially then getting progressively harder the more stick you apply. Because of the (obviously strange) technique I use I have not really noticed the lack of braking with the BL motors. Could be I use more of my brakes than most. I remember a Swedish rally driver (who's name escapes me at the moment) once saying that if you are not accellerating or braking you are not going as fast as you could. I am afraid that rightly or wrongly my driving style seems to have evolved that way over the years. Only in RC cars I have to say though!
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Post by Reuben on Mar 18, 2009 8:59:20 GMT
I will now be experimenting with drag brake now this sunday , just my personal driving style but I accelerate the car along the straight, brake if need to slow a bit (arround the tyre), then lift off the brake into neutral and coast into the apex, whilst coasting into the apex I will then use trail braking or a little throttle to adjust the car into the apex, then once I hit the apex I will then accelerate out of the corner (depending on the corner = the amount of acceleration applied until in a straight line again). just my 2 cents
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