Is boost dead

[darrenoakley]

Right can of worms to open here so sorry for all you guys that are bored of this but I find it quite interesting and after testing zero timing and I mean zero not stock spec with a little boost I have found 10.5 much easier to drive than boosted 17.5 personally that is.
Anyway there is an interesting thread on RC Tech at the moment worth a read.
www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/505127-boost-dead.html

[legoman]

not had the chance to try latest esc boosts as of yet , was in its infant stages when i last raced , from what im reading its almost like the old group B rally cars , ridicolously fast and will get removed when it decapitates a crowd member.

[yellowshark]

No problem at all Darren, a chance to get back on my hobby horse. ;D

If you (ie "one" but I will use" you") find your boosted setup difficult to drive, that is not the fault/cause of the technology. It means you have created a power-train setup that either your car setup cannot handle, or you are not yet capable of handling or you will never be capable of handling.

I will assume chassis setup is fine.

Why setup a car with speed DELIVERY you cannot control. Terry has been doing the same with Ben as I have done with Craig and Ross in the past, configure the speed of the car to something they can handle and as they improve speed it up.

And of course it is not straightforward and requires personal decisions. One thing we have always struggled with on boosted 10.5 at Bashley is whether to kick in turbo before or after the final bend. For us it is not an issue with 13.5 but with 10.5 if it kicks in before the apex and the line is not spot on, it can be very difficult to control the power on exit. We ended up modifying it depending on track conditions or how much risk we felt like taking.

I think also we are often in danger of forgetting what the NG speedos sought to do and give us.
Pre NG speedos you had a compromise on FDR. Choose a gearing that was low enough to give you infield acceleration but not to the detriment of speed on the straight. You had to find the balance that suited you.

NG speedos give us tools to get over this compromise by allowing lower gearing for infield but providing more timing and higher revs on the straight so that you are not penalised at the top end (or at least as much as you might have been pre NG).

Yes a pretty simplistic statement, because it still takes some effort to get it right for any given track- but it is the fundamental.
And you only have to visit some of the NG speedo forums to quickly realise there are a bunch of people out there that really do not get it. Setting all the parameters to max is not the answer.

So if you are finding a boosted setup difficult to handle you need to reassess your power train setup, it's not right. If you setup your power-train with DELIVERY of speed that puts YOU on the edge then yes it will be difficult, perhaps no different in concept than the thread on steering exponential - if YOU can handle it then an ultra responsive car will be quicker, check out Schumi at Ferrari.

So to answer the question, for me - no

To be personal Darren, if you find driving a non boosted 10.5 more fun that an boosted 17.5 then move up to Open Class and have some fun ;D Of course the answer may well be to tune your 17.5settings. If you can get it to drive easier you will probably be faster

For the avoidance of doubt I am not saying there is not a place, especially at club level, for easy cheap slower stock speedos for the entry level class. I am sure glad NG speedos were not around when we took up the sport ;D - the point there of course is that a beginner does not need one. It makes me smile when I see some of the comments on Racechat on this subject, when our club had the foresight to set up ECO.

And I pay little attention to USA forums. Personally I do not consider that a nation that believes top motorsport consists of going round in circles all day long, where nothing matters until you get to the last 2 laps, has much to offer on the subject (oops)

[darrenoakley]

Don't remember saying anywhere in my post that I found boosted difficult ,to fast or to slow .I was saying I liked the feel of none boosted more. You seem to have created a post about something personal to my setup and that was not what I was on about.
If you how ever want to talk about personal experience with different Gen speedos you could pick up a transmitter for a few laps and try yourself as I find it hard to believe you can really comment on any of this without actually racing it yourself. Don't get me wrong you may have a good knowledge of how it works in theory but that is useless in my opinion unless you have actually experienced the FEEL for yourself.

Now let's get back to talking about what the post was about and not commenting on something you only have only a guess about mate.

[lesbaldry]

Apr 20, 2011 23:07:41 GMT yellowshark said:

And of course it is not straightforward and requires personal decisions. One thing we have always struggled with on boosted 10.5 at Bashley is whether to kick in turbo before or after the final bend. For us it is not an issue with 13.5 but with 10.5 if it kicks in before the apex and the line is not spot on, it can be very difficult to control the power on exit. We ended up modifying it depending on track conditions or how much risk we felt like taking.


Yes a pretty simplistic statement, because it still takes some effort to get it right for any given track- but it is the fundamental.
And you only have to visit some of the NG speedo forums to quickly realise there are a bunch of people out there that really do not get it. Setting all the parameters to max is not the answer.

At the time off the speed debate a while back I suggested non boosted and lower winds for the sake of ease of use but got blasted by a few (not this forum)
IMHO and having chatted to a few well known racers over the past couple of months the consensus of opinion is the classes are a little to fast and complicated for the clubman to compete with confidence.Especially 10.5!.....For a start Bashley is way to small and bumpy for 10.5 boosted to be enjoyable racing.Take a look at West Londons Lap times,Even on track of that size you will find 10.5 not that much slower than Mod! Even the fast flowing power track Aldershot has 13.5,10.5 and Mod pretty close theses days.
Are our classes too fast? probably tbh but people enjoy speed.personally I would like to see the clubman/stock classes a little slower and more manageable for the sake of the new driver and to get back to some controllable close quarter fun racing....If you want to do warp speed do mod at Nat level!
I agree with Pete ( thats unusual ) If people are struggling to Handel what ever class with boosted speedos then its the profile that's wrong making it hard to drive..but unfortunately we all love to see our cars "rip" out of a corner regardless if too much power is slowing our lap times
I'm currently using a £60 boosted speedo with good results at Aldershot and west London,Both tracks need totally different profiles.West London been very technical with low grip needs some "fiddly" settings,but trust me the speedo motor combo is a smooth as a baby's bum to drive!

So would a lower wind non boosted combo be easier to drive and as fast as my boosted 10.5 ? probably!! but one things for sure It wouldn't of taken me a whole west London meeting to sort a drivable FDR and boosted speedo profile that I liked....AND annoyingly having to keep adjusting the profile as the grip came up to stay on the pace...and im suposed to "roughly" know what im doing

One speedo one setting with sensible power is the uncomplicated way forward ....Isn't it? ;D......Dunno lol

[yellowshark]

Apr 21, 2011 7:49:03 GMT @lesbaldry said:

For a start Bashley is way to small and bumpy for 10.5 boosted to be enjoyable racing.


So would a lower wind non boosted combo be easier to drive and as fast as my boosted 10.5 ? probably!! but one things for sure It would'nt of taken me a whole meeting to sort a drivable FDR and boosted speedo profile that I liked

Good to see you are alive and kicking Les ;D

I think you are right on the Bashley and 10.5 point. Craig cannot match his non boosted 10.5 times when using boost - but he can with a boosted 13.5!

The last point is good too and it seems rarely mentioned. I remember spending an age trying to sort out Aldershot. Mind you that was not the fault of the Tekin,, it was down to me not knowing anything because I don't drive RC .

Apparantly all the training and advice you and other national class drivers have given me over the past 5 years has been a waste of time

[darrenoakley]

When you say Craig cant match his 10.5 none boosted times with boosted do you mean true zero timing or stock spec type speedo Pete. As the stock spec gen 2 speedos are a lot different to true zero timing. I have tested back to back and the sphere/stock spec speedo is way too fast for me at 10.5 but the Zero timing profile felt fine with the same motor.

Your point Les about a lower wind un boosted combo is exactly what I am on about. When I was testing the 10.5 it was more a case of sort the FDR out and thats it.

Now I am not suggesting any of this for the club but was more just to see after a year of us all running boosted if peoples opinions had changed.

Lastly I am not saying that all the advise you have been given was a waste mate( And I think you know that wasn't the point I was making), but surely you cant expect to understand what the difference in a speedo setting feels like when not driving it yourself. Yes you may have a very good understanding of how the software and setup works but some of the changes we can make on theses things are so slight yet make such a difference to the feel of it that they need to be felt first hand.

[ianlloyd]

Luckily we don't have this problem in Pro Eco!

[lesbaldry]

Apr 21, 2011 11:57:35 GMT @darrenoakley said:

Your point Les about a lower wind un boosted combo is exactly what I am on about. When I was testing the 10.5 it was more a case of sort the FDR out and thats it.

Exactly Darren this was my point a while back when all were moaning about price to keep up and the speeds are too quick.
But no! the few of us experienced racers who saw this coming and experienced a similar sort of "beef" back in the speedo/cell wars during the brushed days.
As for speed the classes are to fast IMHO, so even if the BRCA were to slow things down some people wont race a slow class,for some stupid reason a slower stock class carries a "stigma"....for Pete's sake take a look at 17.5 and its speed, theses days its equivalent to the old "elite"19t Pro stock class,yet no bugger wants to run it ...apart from in the US where its the most popular class....now that tells me us Brits are a bunch of snobby speed freaks
As for the speed costs beef,at least its been proven that 60 quid can get you all the power you need,the only down side now to gen 3s is the complexity to set them up correctly
Yes in a perfect world a price controlled non boosted speedo could be a good thing....at least we would have more time to spend on and worry about chassis set ups

And yes I agree 10.5 unboosted will probably be very close to 3rd gen 17.5 .....but it will STILL be too slow for some!

Todays 13.5 is brushed Mod speeds and 10.5 is very very close last years Mod speeds.....way to quick for most to handle

[legoman]

well i will put the 17.5 'novice' boosted to the test , im gonna be running with a cyclone tc , lrp 17.5 vector x11 motor , a nosram pearl V2 with latest flashed firmware (got the usb thingy today) , and no experience of this new 'boosted' system , iv set up my FDR as 6.66 lol . and shall hopefully be up on the following bankholiday weekend , (wanted to this sunday but work commitments ( ) i like to fiddle with the settings so ill see if i can make it usable or crash n burn lol

[Reuben]

People will race where the best racing is regardless of speedo's boost, no boost, brushed, brushless...

just look at the recent track entries at Bashley on a Sunday, its either Eco/Pro-Eco or OpenTC - what happened to 17.5 (which was most popular last year)

People dont want to race Stock (boosted 17.5) at a slower speed because they either prefer the simpleness and minimal wear of 21t motors OR they want to race at the sharp end with fast speeds and where the regular non-eco drivers race (Ie myself, jason, mike, martin, liam), giving them guaranteed racing. We enjoy our boosted 13.5's but dont force others to use it.

Also we very intentionally opened up 13.5 to OpenTC to allow people to run what they prefer and not be penalized for wanting to run a non-conforming setup.. and tbh Bashley is to small to really use any of the power from these hotter motors, so are we just kidding ourselves trying to run faster motors? probably, but it puts a massive smile on my face.

we should just do away with classes and run 21t sealed can (slip eco and pro-eco) and Touring (which is anything you can get your hands on and sensibly drive )

but back to topic. I dont believe Boost is dead, Ide admit I prefer the feel of a Mod motor in the car (your not 90% throttle most of hte time), but ide never trade my 13.5 speed, 60 degrees C max motor temp and infield rip for a slower class that just gets Hot to make it quick (but thats just a personal preference).

[darrenoakley]

I totally agree with that Rueben and that is the only reason I ran 13.5 boosted for the last round of the reality cup, as the 17.5 turn out in the first round and again in the second round was so poor.

Tbh I thought it was going to be to quick for me and I also thought it was too quick for the track but once my set up was fine and I had shed some rear grip for the finals and changed to 36s it was much less of a handfull. And at least I had a full heat of racers to chase round and broke my PB to boot.

So dont get me wrong I dont think it should be stopped but I myself prefer the feel of just motor and no boost. Saying that I will run what ever is going to give me a enjoyable nights racing be it 17.5 or 13.5 boosted.

[yellowshark]

Apr 21, 2011 17:45:31 GMT Reuben said:

... they either prefer the simpleness and minimal wear of 21t motors OR they want to race at the sharp end with fast speeds

quote]

A bit like 27T and 19T then ;D Boy did the BRCA drop the ball

[lesbaldry]

Apr 22, 2011 7:53:30 GMT yellowshark said:

Apr 21, 2011 17:45:31 GMT Reuben said:

... they either prefer the simpleness and minimal wear of 21t motors OR they want to race at the sharp end with fast speeds

quote]

A bit like 27T and 19T then ;D Boy did the BRCA drop the ball

Yep and some Pete!!!

People do go where "the best racing is" but that has some sheep factor there .........But I would bet a fortune if the BRCA had introduced a sensible stock class (17.5) and just Mod at national level two years ago 99% of the clubs would have followed the lead.....And we would all be still enjoying the evolving speeds of 17.5 at Bashley?

27t at national level was the most hotly contested and well attended class ever, fact!! (not much faster than pro eco and way slower than 3rd gen 17.5)......So why is the slowest class(10.5) at 2 day nationals way faster than any brushed mod class..hmmm
With amusement I watched the Mod C group qualify and race at west London....These guys were kidding them selves if they thought they could handle the power.the fastest guy in this group was two laps down on the best 13.5 time.....This type of racer must be the ones who vote in silly speed classes at AGM's ......And on the other side of the coin,a handful of us watched Tim Timms put his 17.5 round a in time that would have made the 13.5 B, also beat a handful of 10.5s and one or two mods.

[ianlloyd]

I agree Les, the BRCA should have taken a more National approach and introduced a sensible stock class that could have been run at club levels although do we all have ourselves to blame for this for not attending and voting at the AGM?.

Regardless of the fact that the classes promoted by the BRCA are more or less ignored in the main by clubs, we all still try hard to abide by their rules and regulations as far as the rest of racing goes so yes I do think they owe it to club level racers to have those slower and more cost effective classes under the BRCA banner but I doubt there are many within the hierachy that will actuall want to do that

I dont think now that boosted classes will stop as it is too late now in answer to the original question.

I would still like a brushless stock class for us non high speed racers. I like Pro Eco a lot as the racing is about as equalas you can get and the emphasis is on set up and ability rather than outright speed. If we could have a brushless class with that synopsis then I would be first there! I just do not want to get into this constant battle to find the right speedo setting battle for a fun days racing. For me that is not what it's all about.

[lesbaldry]

Apr 22, 2011 14:09:22 GMT ianlloyd said:

I dont think now that boosted classes will stop as it is too late now in answer to the original question.

I would still like a brushless stock class for us non high speed racers. I like Pro Eco a lot as the racing is about as equalas you can get and the emphasis is on set up and ability rather than outright speed. If we could have a brushless class with that synopsis then I would be first there! I just do not want to get into this constant battle to find the right speedo setting battle for a fun days racing. For me that is not what it's all about.

Trying to kill boosted in this country would be like trying to stop a tsunami and even if we did try it would damage the hobby

Yes me too,I find it a pain to keep chasing profiles to keep on the pace.All I see pit side is racers with their heads buried in lap tops or debating the best "turbo/timing " to gain that extra grid slot rather than concentrating on set up finites and thumb skills...This must put a few newby's off....or more importantly those skillful racers with the same gear that are getting "out grunted " by lesser drivers cause they don't have the profile know how....or in some cases 300 quids worth of lap top in their pit bag!!

There is another way of looking at boosted non boosted

With non boosted we would have to gear our motors to the moon for top end causing heat issues with probably lots of popped motors for the newby and experienced alike (remember the days of brushless and 1st gen )..then you would also find who has the best cells/latest C rating would be influential on grunt/rip.
At least with boosted speedos cells arnt to much of an issue! we can gear low for "grunt/rip", let the timing/turbo regain top end speed but at the same time have a certain control over temps,lets face it ,its pretty rare these days to totally cook a motor....the hard part is finding the best mix.

[darrenoakley]

It's a difficult one for me as I love the tech side of it but hate the feel.
I think that speedo setup is now a part of overall tuning and some will win via better car set ups, others from a mixture of both car and speedo.
Having said that I still would prefer a simple life ( spur and pinion tuning).

[Reuben]

I think there is also maybe to much emphasis on the boost these days. As it seems that a good car setup with boost does make the car faster per lap, but if you dont have a decent setup, then the boost will make you slower regardless of how fast it feels.

I know my boost curve is relatively low (450rpm per degree) and starts quite late 5000rpm, whereas most people you will see run boost starting at like 2-3000rpm and 300rpm per degree), it just makes the car much more consistent - not necessarily faster in a striaght line, but at bashley making the car be able to go flat out round the sweeper onto the straight

[lesbaldry]

I my experiance and having listened to top racers in their various classes there is no real "rule of thumb " for speedo boost settings.theses settings are motor make,driving style and track lay out /grip dependant. there is two schools of thought regarding this,gear your motor high using less timing/boost with low start points or do the opposite,its a personal thing but can make a big difference to how the car drives and lap times.
I must admit a one setting non boosted speedos simplicity does look more attractive theses days