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Post by yellowshark on Nov 20, 2008 13:49:29 GMT
Not sure if this is a red herring but I am trying to get my head around this one so I can vote sensibly at the AGM
With different classes in the same final do the same rules and etiquette apply? EG
do 2 guys in 13.5 slugging it out have to give way to a 19.5/10.5 (by definition faster than them) even if they have track position as they are impeding his separate race.
do 2 guys in 13.5 slugging it out in 13.5s have to give way to a 19.5/10.5 that physically is about to lap them but in race terms is not because they are in a different championship.
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Post by oldtimeracer on Nov 20, 2008 14:06:20 GMT
Tricky one this.
I assume if you are being lapped then you should give way regardless of whether the person who is lapping you is in a different class or not. That I believe is normal rules.
I would also assume that if someone in a different class is trying to get past you as they are much faster than you then yes you should let them pass. However in practice that may not be possible.
If they are MUCH faster than you it should not be a problem but if they are only marginally faster then it could well mean that your own race is compromised.
On the other hand and I know from experience this has happened. If you are in a lower (theoretical speed that is) class and are trying to pass someone who is in a faster class than you but is not such a good driver, should they give way?
In theory anyone who is faster should have right of way in qualifying but not so in actual racing.
Be interesting to see what everyone else thinks.
The chances of this actually occurring do seem fairly remote though. It also depends rather a lot on what exact classes are voted for.
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Post by TryHard on Nov 20, 2008 14:07:27 GMT
IMO, if your on track at the same time... it matters diddly squat what motor/class/championship your running!
If the guys behind is faster than you, and it's qualifying, then your should let him by.. if your racing (i.e. a final), then you can defend all you like...
I think your reading a bit too much into the different championship situations there Pete.
Ed
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Post by saintroeer on Nov 20, 2008 16:26:28 GMT
IMO, if your on track at the same time... it matters diddly squat what motor/class/championship your running! If the guys behind is faster than you, and it's qualifying, then your should let him by.. if your racing (i.e. a final), then you can defend all you like... I think your reading a bit too much into the different championship situations there Pete. Ed eds right, you should only work to what is happening on the trackat the time. if someones much faster in quailys or lapping they should be let by at the first sensible place |
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Post by lesbaldry on Nov 20, 2008 16:42:36 GMT
I think Pete has a very valid point and may mean this. Should a 13.5 car that is leading a finals race give way when challenged buy(2nd place) a faster 10.5 with the other 10.5s hard on his heels and they are both chasing points but in different classes....I would yield !!.. room for debate?... Knowing our lot Pete,most could'nt give a monkeys about the points as long as they have a good race  ;D |
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Post by yellowshark on Nov 20, 2008 19:15:07 GMT
I think Pete has a very valid point and may mean this. Should a 13.5 car that is leading a finals race give way when challenged buy(2nd place) a faster 10.5 with the other 10.5s hard on his heels and they are both chasing points but in different classes....I would yield !!.. room for debate?... Knowing our lot Pete,most could'nt give a monkeys about the points as long as they have a good race ;D Well that is pretty close Les and is an example, but a better one maybe is a 13.5 with a 10.5 behind closely followed by a couple 13.5s. We see this on the telly. The leading 13.5 gives way and one of the other 13.5 jumps past as well as the 10.5. I know what we would all like to see but in reality... Two 13.5s in a tussle with 2 laps to go and a catching 10.5 behind. Is the 2nd 13.5 going to want to give way in the knowledge that the 3 or 4 car lengths he MIGHT loose will never be recovered in less than two laps. Qualifying of course should a totally different situation and no different to it is now, ie people not getting out of the way of a faster car ;D As I said, it was just a question to get it clearer in my mind and I just wondered what the more experienced members views were |
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Post by keitheroonie on Nov 20, 2008 22:55:37 GMT
What a question  Ok, I know you said you wanted the more experienced members views but I thought I would give my five peneth anyway ;D ;D The way I see it is, 17.5 and 27 there's no issue, horses for courses so to speak With the 13.5/10.5 classes, as we would always separate a class if there were at least 3 cars of that class running and the drivers requested it, this problem "I feel" shouldn't arise very often. Pete's scenario could happen but with 3 drivers (battling for points) with 13.5s in the race it would mean the 10.5 is either on it's own or racing one other car, so if the majority, in this case the 13.5s are in a battle, then the 10.5 has nothing to gain by overtaking, unless he is also in a close battle with another 10.5. As close battles seem to rarely take place in 13.5 or 10.5 on our track, the chances of two separate close races happening in one combined race is probably quite poor. Having said that, when your in a race, what motor the guy your chasing has in his car, or what class he's running in means nothing, if you can catch him and overtake him your going to and I think that's the way it should be. ;D ;D I would have thought that over the course of a championship, the average score per round would be higher for a driver running a 10.5, compared to a driver running a 13.5, on a weekly basis it wouldn't make much difference, as the fun is in the racing not the winning but the championship table is where it matters to me, if we vote to reduce the size of the championships, I'm sure many more racers will start watching where they are in the championship tables as well, if they're running 13.5 and they can see a driver of equal ability averaging more points per round, it could be frustrating for the driver and counter productive to reducing the championships. These are just my views, on Pete's conundrum , the answer confused me as much as the question ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by yellowshark on Nov 21, 2008 0:09:27 GMT
What a question Right on Keith; with you all the way; well until the end of the last sentence anyway  |
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Post by yellowshark on Nov 21, 2008 0:10:34 GMT
What a question Right on Keith; with you all the way; well until the end of the last sentence anyway err make that the first sentence  |
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Post by keitheroonie on Nov 21, 2008 7:52:58 GMT
I didn't understand it either
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Post by lesbaldry on Nov 21, 2008 8:01:21 GMT
Firstly Im not interested in points but some might be!!..I just like a good "ding dong"  Please help my cofusion here...During a mixed class final who's racing who? are we racing for position or points,cause the way I see it one car will get in the way of the other,to me its two separate races??...Useing a 13.5,do I block a 10.5 on the last bend or do I let him through..sorry I cant get my head round this one..HELP  LOL |
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Post by Reuben on Nov 21, 2008 8:07:30 GMT
I think it depends on how the points are tallyed up? I think what keith was getting at would be: if 2 13.5's were in lead with a 10.5 catching up behind, it would make no difference where the 10.5 finnish in relation to the 13.5s? eg final postion =
1st: 13.5
2nd: 13.5
3rd: 10.5
their championship score for that round would be as 1st = 100 points, 2nd = 99 (or equivilent), 3rd you would then expect to see 98 for the 10.5, but they would get 100 for championship as a different class? So you could have a final as such:
1st: 10.5 - 100pts
2nd: 13.5 - 100pts
3rd: 13.5 - 99pts
4th: 13.5 - 98pts
5th: 13,5 - 97pts
6th: 10.5 - 99pts
7th: 13.5 - 96pts
?? is that how it would work. The only problem with this is that whoever is racing the minority pro-stock class is going to rack up the most points and take a win of the series?
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Post by lesbaldry on Nov 21, 2008 8:21:41 GMT
This I understand Reubs..But if we are also batling for position there is still a chance of a car been held up to catch his main rival ahead and I would'nt want to get in others way,it could be hard to tell who's running what too in the heat of battle!...Sorry If im having a thick moment ;D....tell me to sod off If im irritating  |
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Post by keitheroonie on Nov 21, 2008 8:26:23 GMT
Unfortunately there is no answer on this one, classes are mixed when numbers in one class are low, I say we chat on here to see what everyone else is going to run, then go with that as we do now.
Personally I think this is something that everyone is thinking too much about, we tend to go with the majority anyway, which at present is 17.5, I think the summer may see the trend change to 13.5 for some and 17.5 for others, with the 10.5s in the minority.
What we are also overlooking is, qualifying sorts the finals out, so the faster drivers should be up the front at the start regardless of motor.
This is such a headache, my brain aches! this is like the veggies conundrum "eat that chicken or I'll kill another two chickens".
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Post by oldtimeracer on Nov 21, 2008 8:47:22 GMT
You are right Keith. Too much thinking.
Truth is in qualifying you give way to a faster driver in racing you dont.
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Post by lesbaldry on Nov 21, 2008 9:38:49 GMT
Ok ..got the hint .....Ill shut up then? I think Ians allready taken the mickey out of me on the Xmas poem thread ;D.....  |
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Post by yellowshark on Nov 21, 2008 9:41:18 GMT
This I understand Reubs..But if we are also batling for position there is still a chance of a car been held up to catch his main rival ahead and I would'nt want to get in others way,it could be hard to tell who's running what too in the heat of battle!...Sorry If im having a thick moment ;D....tell me to sod off If im irritating Not thick at all Les; that is exactly where I am coming from in my confusion and you articulated it in easier to understand manner. |
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Post by yellowshark on Nov 21, 2008 9:45:13 GMT
I think it depends on how the points are tallyed up? I think what keith was getting at would be: if 2 13.5's were in lead with a 10.5 catching up behind, it would make no difference where the 10.5 finnish in relation to the 13.5s? eg final postion = 1st: 13.5 2nd: 13.5 3rd: 10.5 their championship score for that round would be as 1st = 100 points, 2nd = 99 (or equivilent), 3rd you would then expect to see 98 for the 10.5, but they would get 100 for championship as a different class? So you could have a final as such: 1st: 10.5 - 100pts 2nd: 13.5 - 100pts 3rd: 13.5 - 99pts 4th: 13.5 - 98pts 5th: 13,5 - 97pts 6th: 10.5 - 99pts 7th: 13.5 - 96pts ?? is that how it would work. The only problem with this is that whoever is racing the minority pro-stock class is going to rack up the most points and take a win of the series? That was my understanding of how it would work too Reuben.. Except of course the 10.5 that came 6th didn't come 6th he came 2nd and I guess I would have expetced the results sheets to be posted seprately for each class. But this is not importnat as long as everyone is clear on what is going on. Its no different from posting overall RRC results and then working out the F1/f2/f3 positions. |
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Post by yellowshark on Nov 21, 2008 9:54:29 GMT
Guys dont forget my original question; it had nothing to do with who comes first or second or how points are handed out etc. It was simply one of etiquette and rules and was there a danger of some unhapiness arising becase a car in one class had screwed up (inadvertently or not) a car or two in another class because in championship terms they would not be racing each other.
Going off thread; If the vast majority of the club feel that points are not important then why on earth are we racing 5 seperate classes? Why don't we just follow the sensible BRCA lot and run two? Of course if points are important and doing well relative to your capability in a championship is important to the vast majority of members then additonal classes are required.
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Post by Martin S on Nov 21, 2008 10:34:47 GMT
I think it depends on how the points are tallyed up? I think what keith was getting at would be: if 2 13.5's were in lead with a 10.5 catching up behind, it would make no difference where the 10.5 finnish in relation to the 13.5s? eg final postion = 1st: 13.5 2nd: 13.5 3rd: 10.5 their championship score for that round would be as 1st = 100 points, 2nd = 99 (or equivilent), 3rd you would then expect to see 98 for the 10.5, but they would get 100 for championship as a different class? So you could have a final as such: 1st: 10.5 - 100pts 2nd: 13.5 - 100pts 3rd: 13.5 - 99pts 4th: 13.5 - 98pts 5th: 13,5 - 97pts 6th: 10.5 - 99pts 7th: 13.5 - 96pts ?? is that how it would work. The only problem with this is that whoever is racing the minority pro-stock class is going to rack up the most points and take a win of the series? That was my understanding of how it would work too Reuben.. Except of course the 10.5 that came 6th didn't come 6th he came 2nd and I guess I would have expetced the results sheets to be posted seprately for each class. But this is not importnat as long as everyone is clear on what is going on. Its no different from posting overall RRC results and then working out the F1/f2/f3 positions. AFAIK everyone that does the required number of races gets a trophy in the club championship. So surely in the above example whoever is going to race the minority class will not rack up the most points and take the series but they will earn points and a trophy in their individual class. |
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Post by lesbaldry on Nov 21, 2008 12:56:27 GMT
Going off thread; If the vast majority of the club feel that points are not important then why on earth are we racing 5 seperate classes? Why don't we just follow the sensible BRCA lot and run two? Of course if points are important and doing well relative to your capability in a championship is important to the vast majority of members then additonal classes are required. Pete please dont take my comment "not interested in points" as the norm,that is purely and only my thoughts ;)club racing to me is importantly,fun with a good atmosphere first points last. |
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Post by yellowshark on Nov 21, 2008 14:11:48 GMT
Don't worry Les I wasn't, in my book both perspectives are equally valid, the only real point being that most will have a leaning to one or the other. But look let me stick my kneck out here.
I am not saying were are converting to Superstock but Craig would like to race his 19T some more. He really enjoyed his trial run. So we will loose points because the 19T is not as quick as the 10.5 - but he will have fun. Now if we were to convert to Superstock dad would fork out the hundreds of pounds necessary because we like winning trophies - in order of most like winning trophies it goes Ross/dad/Craig. But if you are already running 13.5 and points are important to you then it is only £50 or so to upgrade to 10.5 IF YOU NEED TO. So why not just kill this all and have one Superstock class.
My take on stock is that 27T and 17.5 are all but dammit equal unless you are a guru like Les and can turn out that magic 27T - so one stock class
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Post by lesbaldry on Nov 21, 2008 14:58:37 GMT
Pete you wont loose out running a 19t against 10.5,there will be more than enough power for our track in winter conditions,in fact I will go as far as to say the 13.5 may be just as quick and perhaps easier to drive in "cold grip" As for "wringing the neck"of a 19t the same tuning principles apply as a 27t..lot of work to make them go! Im all for a single"pro stock" class,it would make things easier |
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Post by oldtimeracer on Nov 21, 2008 15:11:25 GMT
Les from what you keep mentioning about winter and low grip is it a case then for maybe different classes in the winter than in the summer when we have high grip and can actually utilise all the power of the lower wind motors?
Or is that just too complicated.
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Post by Simon Crabb on Nov 21, 2008 15:48:24 GMT
Les from what you keep mentioning about winter and low grip is it a case then for maybe different classes in the winter than in the summer when we have high grip and can actually utilise all the power of the lower wind motors? Or is that just too complicated. Yes Ian, that's just too complicated! |
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Post by oldtimeracer on Nov 21, 2008 16:15:55 GMT
Oh right. OK. |
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Post by lesbaldry on Nov 21, 2008 16:17:25 GMT
Les from what you keep mentioning about winter and low grip is it a case then for maybe different classes in the winter than in the summer when we have high grip and can actually utilise all the power of the lower wind motors? Or is that just too complicated. Yes Ian thats my feeling and perhaps thats why the 17.5 has taken off....For me I love the 17.5 for what it is!..but I may feel the grip is good one warmish winter day and fancy knackering a set of tyres running pro stock ;D....but Im not saying just lower classes in the winter at all!!...its all about sensible cheaper fun racing....and what WE as a club fancy on the day!.. most of us have this option now ..hope this makes sense? |
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Post by keitheroonie on Nov 21, 2008 17:19:25 GMT
If a driver is racing against a 10.5 that is so much quicker they have no chance of catching it, the chances are that driver would still beat them with a 13.5. But If a driver's running a 13.5 and someone of similar ability, also running a 13.5, qualifies just behind him on the grid, is it then fair for that other driver to put in a 10.5 for the race and beat him? The conundrum goes on ;D ;D ;D Let's just stick with stock, it's so much easier. hmmm.........it wasn't always this easy though |
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Post by yellowshark on Nov 21, 2008 19:05:01 GMT
If a driver is racing against a 10.5 that is so much quicker they have no chance of catching it, the chances are that driver would still beat them with a 13.5. But If a driver's running a 13.5 and someone of similar ability, also running a 13.5, qualifies just behind him on the grid, is it then fair for that other driver to put in a 10.5 for the race and beat him? The conundrum goes on ;D ;D ;D Let's just stick with stock, it's so much easier. hmmm.........it wasn't always this easy though Not sure that is a conundrum Keith; why would that guy have used a 13.5 to qualify when he has a 10.5 and is capable of using a 10.5. My take on a multi engine class is that if you just want fun you run whichever engine best suits you eg might be slower but cheaper on tyres. If you want to be competitive and win points then you have spec your car competitively as was always the case eg you'd use an Xray not a Tamiya. And of course it includes good setup and learning how to drive that extra power ;D |
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Post by keitheroonie on Nov 21, 2008 19:23:48 GMT
No it wasn't meant to be a conundrum, the conundrum is the original question, mine was just an example, an unlikely one I know but so is the conundrum we're discussing Just wanted to add another unlikely example really ;D To be honest, I'm not that fussed either way, I'll be happy whichever way it goes |
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;D
LOL
