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Post by keitheroonie on Sept 6, 2008 9:59:42 GMT
I thought Marks thread was getting a bit complicated, the discussion left the intended path and ran down this one. So fill your boots and vote/debate away. If there's an answer I've missed let me know I've just noticed the duplicate answer, sorry!!!!
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Post by mattsedgley on Sept 6, 2008 10:38:15 GMT
This is all getting terribly confusing!!
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Post by keitheroonie on Sept 6, 2008 12:12:08 GMT
Oh come on Matt, you're the teacher here. it's a simple vote just pick and click ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Robin Howett on Sept 6, 2008 12:26:41 GMT
The ideal 'set' of classes in my view would be option three 17.5/27 - 13.5 - 10.5/19....... BUT and it is a big but this needs lots of racers to keep three classes supported, over the year prostock has had maybe 6 max racers at a club meet made up of 13.5 and 10.5 so splitting 6 racers up to run two classes won't make for good racing.
So maybe a bold move to scrap the 10.5's and have just 13.5 in prostock is the way forward, so 17.5/27 and 13.5/19 would be a nice option for club meets.
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Post by Martin S on Sept 6, 2008 13:42:01 GMT
So maybe a bold move to scrap the 10.5's and have just 13.5 in prostock is the way forward, so 17.5/27 and 13.5/19 would be a nice option for club meets. NOooooo! We've just spent all our money on Brushless Prostock 10.5, which conforms to every other clubs strategy in UK. ie Racing outside of Bashley in Prostock we need a 10.5 I admit there is little difference between 13.5 and 10.5 on our track, but they do need a totally different technique / skill Visitors from other clubs using 13.5's will surely be expecting to be doing stock class IMO 17.5 should be novice, 13.5 stock, 10.5 prostock. ( but what do I know I'm only pit crew) However if everyone is happy to mix 13.5 and 10.5 at Bashley only, then OK but please don't get rid of 10.5 now
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Post by issac on Sept 6, 2008 16:03:06 GMT
17.5 / 27 and 13.5 / 10.5 / 19 sounds good to me it allows the club to run good meetings with the least number of classes if it needs to be split up then run an f1/f2/f3 championship
i agree with martin that we need to keep 10.5 as we do get visiting drivers before the big meetings and the club cannot afford to upset drivers.
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Post by lesbaldry on Sept 6, 2008 16:05:54 GMT
So maybe a bold move to scrap the 10.5's and have just 13.5 in prostock is the way forward, so 17.5/27 and 13.5/19 would be a nice option for club meets. NOooooo! We've just spent all our money on Brushless Prostock 10.5, which conforms to every other clubs strategy in UK. ie Racing outside of Bashley in Prostock we need a 10.5 I admit there is little difference between 13.5 and 10.5 on our track, but they do need a totally different technique / skill Visitors from other clubs using 13.5's will surely be expecting to be doing stock class IMO 17.5 should be novice, 13.5 stock, 10.5 prostock. ( but what do I know I'm only pit crew) However if everyone is happy to mix 13.5 and 10.5 at Bashley only, then OK but please don't get rid of 10.5 now Ill go with that Martin, some lads have gone to the expence of a 10.5 , personaly I dont mind running my 13.5 with 10.5,should I keep up with one I'll have done well...but deep down I agree with Rob, the 13.5 is easier to drive and may become more popular at the club for this reason?as is the 17.5 compared to 27t..some how I susspect a lot of lads to be running the 17.5's this winter???
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Post by Mark Townsend on Sept 6, 2008 18:17:08 GMT
Don't drop the prostock 10.5! I have 3 of them and am not prepared to buy several 13.5s for next year.
The whole idea of my thread was for people just to state what they wanted to run and not get into the debates again. But it's happened again.
If you're buying gear now for this year or next year buy something sensible that most people run. With the numbers of 13.5 and 10.5 runners in SLCC this year I would think they'd be pretty miffed if we didn't carry on next year.
Personally i don't know if 17 and 27 are near equivalent as I don't race them. They may be popular in the states, indeed it looks like thay will be the new 'stock' class according to ROAR, it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be approved by BRCA or be a class for the SL/STCC or TORC or the BTCC.
What it depends on, is you the clubman, stating what you already do, or intend to run for next year.
Wait til i start the tyre poll!!!
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Post by lesbaldry on Sept 6, 2008 19:28:40 GMT
The whole idea of my thread was for people just to state what they wanted to run and not get into the debates again. But it's happened again. Wait til i start the tyre poll!!! Not me Mark, I'll go with the flow, I was just fireing back at some who wont listen and run off at a tangent Cant wait for thr tyre poll....do brushless make any difference to choice of compound and if so are they an advantage ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Mark Townsend on Sept 6, 2008 20:07:16 GMT
Simple control tyre for next year. Yokomo drift rings!!!
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Post by lesbaldry on Sept 6, 2008 20:16:38 GMT
Simple control tyre for next year. Yokomo drift rings!!! Oh bugger, I've just brought 2 gallons of tyre addative
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Post by Reuben on Sept 6, 2008 22:43:41 GMT
dirft rings? wow those plastic things.... they will last me ALL season!!
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Post by TryHard on Sept 7, 2008 0:52:32 GMT
I voted wrong... ment to go 17.5/27t and the 13.5/10.5/19t... opps
On another point, it'll be unlikely that the 13/17.5 brushless' will ever be approved by the BRCA, simply as they have now been dropped as a national class... Best bet would be too look at what the juniors does, as thats a one off event, so could have it's own list...
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Post by lesbaldry on Sept 7, 2008 6:44:57 GMT
The BRCA had their head in the sand last year and dithered about! "kept erery one guessing?..follow ROAR I say ...just my thoughts
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Post by yellowshark on Sept 7, 2008 8:07:07 GMT
You hit the nail right on the head Les, that is the BRCA not my orifices ;D We just should not need to be having this debate; we only are (probably) because as you say, they stuck their head in the sand. Has anyone here done as I suggested a few months ago and submitted a proposal form to the AGM to implement 17.5s? It just takes 2 people and if no-one does it won't happen (probably). I don't know if Ed is right, with all the regional classes running 13.5s you would have thought there would have been some debate on that one, but I suspect you are right Ed.
Just looking at a couple of comments on Racechat, one might expect that the 2009 classes will see no change and that will mean 27T for Stock, but is that in all reality viable? And it is not that important to many here; but it is to Craig, possibly Dan who only ran pro-stock instead of stock because until the 11th hour the BRCA were not allowing Lipos in stock; and it should also affect young Simon who ought to give it a crack next year.
I can't imagine they would put 13.5 into the Juniors; BUT they might consider 17.5 if people were to raise the issue I suppose. There were a variety of complaints about ommitting Lipos, indeed from myself and Col amongst others and in the end they did relent.
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Post by Mark Townsend on Sept 7, 2008 14:22:13 GMT
"Has anyone here done as I suggested a few months ago and submitted a proposal form to the AGM to implement 17.5s? It just takes 2 people and if no-one does it won't happen (probably). "
BRCA proposal form is on the BRCA website and any BRCA member can propose a change. Ross and Craig, there's your two proposers.
Has anyone got word from other clubs using 17s or anything through racechat about their popularity or not?
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Post by Robin Howett on Sept 12, 2008 12:33:48 GMT
I went up to newbury last friday and the TC class is all 'stock' but they run 13.5's, i had to run a borrowed brushed 27t as all i had was 10.5. I don't think anyone at Dorset club runs 17.5. We are in a slightly unique position in that our track is not a horse power track and so the 17.5 works well, not sure how well it will be accepted at the bigger more flowing tracks. We might be in danger of adding too many classes here.
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Post by lesbaldry on Sept 12, 2008 14:18:34 GMT
I went up to newbury last friday and the TC class is all 'stock' but they run 13.5's, i had to run a borrowed brushed 27t as all i had was 10.5. I don't think anyone at Dorset club runs 17.5. We are in a slightly unique position in that our track is not a horse power track and so the 17.5 works well, not sure how well it will be accepted at the bigger more flowing tracks. We might be in danger of adding too many classes here. For "Pete's sake (no pun intended) I cant get my head round some peoples thoughts,lot's agree the 13.5 is too fast for an entry level class!! along come the 17.5 and no one has the balls to try it and prehaps prepose it apart from us..yes our track is not a horse power track .nor is Yeovil and prhaps one or two others? but the yanks love it and I bet they dont run on squirty little tracks.....Wake up BRCA and other bodys, smell the coffe and think about the youngsters and new drivers with limited funds" the more HP you run the beter and more expensive your chassis has to be ,less wear too!!"
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Post by keitheroonie on Sept 12, 2008 21:18:45 GMT
I totally agree with you Les,
I think the classes should probably be: 17.5/27 (both collecting points in the same table) and 13.5/10.5/19 (with 13.5 as F2 and 10.5/19 as F1). If we had enough racers each week then splitting up the prostock would also be good. Just my thoughts after reading everyones views and seeing how the voting's gone.
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Post by Martin Young on Sept 12, 2008 22:02:48 GMT
For "lot's agree the 13.5 is too fast for an entry level class!! along come the 17.5 " I agree 17.5 is a great class, looks like good close racing as well as a great novice class. Upto now I wont let Lucas run brushless as the 13.5 has too much power for a newish racer. As soon as i get the funds Lucas (and probably myself) will be using 17.5's for sure. To me 17.5/27t stock and 13.5/10.5/19t seems to work well. The idea of F1 and F2 in the prostock seems to make sense too.
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Post by Mark Townsend on Sept 12, 2008 23:00:37 GMT
With enough racers the system you're suggesting works well. But don't forget some weeks we don't have enough drivers to warrant essentially 3 classes. Don't get me wrong i hope the club continues to prosper and we do have enough racers for 3 full classes.
But bear in mind Rob's point, as good as 17.5 is around Bashley, if it's not supported by other clubs locally or the BRCA it could be a minority class. That may mean lack of product and external race series' to compete in, with existing equipment.
That said with the US having a 17.5 'stock' class i'm sure the BRCA will follow suit, as will the larger race series' for next year.
Mine's in the post from Speedtech and i'm looking forward to giving it a go. Might be worth bringing them to West London and the Cotswolds for a trial run or two.
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Post by mattsedgley on Sept 13, 2008 7:52:36 GMT
i'm doing both... happy to try/lend the 17.5 to people who want to experiment..
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Post by keitheroonie on Sept 13, 2008 11:49:20 GMT
Mark, the 17.5 has received the most votes in the motors thread, so I reckon it might not be a minority class . These threads are only intended to find out what people want to run at Bashley next year after all. Unfortunately our club loves brushless and the 13.5 is way to fast on our track for a beginner. So we need a new stock motor and after numerous tests everyone seems happy that the 17.5 is that motor. so why should we worry about what other people are using on their tracks, I personally don't think we should. We don't have a great deal of interaction between clubs (except Yeovil who have a similar track) anyway, apart from big championships like the SLCC and STCC and their motor classes haven't been decided yet. Personally I think the 17.5 class is a great starting point for club racing and stepping stone to the 13.5.
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Post by Mark Townsend on Sept 13, 2008 17:13:04 GMT
That's the point Keith. While it's great at Bashley, if the bigger championships don't take it up as a class, are you not going to race in them, or buy new motors?
Coupled with 13.5 being the most popular in the voting poll and people being allowed to choose 3 different options, 17.5 isn't the most popular choice. But I do agree with you that it's a great starter/ ease of maintenance class. I'm hoping it'll be adopted by BRCA and local clubs as well.
I want to make sure that a) Bashley drivers want to race in the SLCC next year and b) they don't have to buy new motors because all the other entrants are running 13.5.
Despite a fantastic turnout from the Bashley boys this year there are another 10+ clubs involved, if none of them want or race 17.5, I don't want you all to not enter because you have to buy different motors. On the flip side it's the same story for other clubs, if the ST/SLCC adopt 17.5 and no other clubs are using them, they either have to buy new motors or not compete. You see my problem?
The same thing has happened this year already with the introduction of lipo and brushless, it's been too much change for some and they've walked away. Next year hopefully everyone will be more settled on technology. Fortunately, I think, the new technology has attracted a lot of guys who can avoid the hassle of brushed/ NiMh running.
If three classes could be a success I would say 27/17, 13 and 10 as stock, super and pro-stock classes.
Mark
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Post by yellowshark on Sept 13, 2008 17:45:57 GMT
Hi Mark, 19T was included in the poll but you left it out, was that deliberate or just forgetfullness for Pro-Stock?
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Post by MonkeyNuts on Sept 13, 2008 18:22:46 GMT
Personally, i still think that 13.5 and 27t should be stock, i cant see why the club has to be different to the rest of the country . Surely if we are a BRCA club we should run to BRCA rules? Liam
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Post by saintroeer on Sept 13, 2008 18:32:38 GMT
liam this is the second part of the argument.
there are those who will say that for general sunday fundays why should we care about what the rest of the country does, we've found a motor that works on our track and sod the rest. realistically the general consensus is that 17.5 is to be used at bashley and we should just be finding where to put it.
im with mark in that until we have a club that gets over 30 people a meeting we need to run two classes, stock - pro stock, what that constitutes and if we used a 'f' system is the question
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Post by mattsedgley on Sept 13, 2008 19:43:07 GMT
Liam - as and when you join the committee of friday nights at Hamworthy, you will realise that the BRCA release guidelines of how they will run their meetings it's the individual clubs choice on specifics. Look further back into the year with the Liposack/no lipo sack arguement.
At present we dont know that we're the only club in the country running 17.5, it's difficult for us to check - regardless of others a simple comparison of laptimes shows how close the 17.5 and 27t, both are a dam site slower, than a 13.5..
with regional quality drivers such as Les, the staples clan, Matt haskell, mark, and rob all making noises/ordering 17.5 all of those people cant be wrong about the comparisons between 27/17.5
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Post by Mark Townsend on Sept 13, 2008 21:34:49 GMT
Sorry Pete, forgetfulness 13 and 19 in the same class.
Liam, what does the Eurocup allow? Obviously Tamiya only but what winds?
Also believe me 13.5 and 27 br are no way near the same speed. Graham popped in a 21 lapper at the SLCC with a 13.5 I had to drive the bottom off my car to get a 10.5 into the 21 lap club and the best 27 stock result i've seen is a 20 306.
At the start of the year when BL was in it's infancy some drivers felt (bonded?) 13.5 was a similar speed to a good stock. They were probably right then but now a sintered 13.5 with a decent speedo is pretty d**n rapid. I think the difference now is that all sintered 13.5 are consistent and fast whereas 27BR can be utter poo to quite good out of the box and it's how you tune it and maintain it, determines the performance. A very well prepped 27 may still compete with a 13.5 but I feel the 13.5 gives a more consistent, level playing field, speed wise. You plug it in, it goes, no skimming, brushing or tweaking needed.
The same can be said for 19t BR motors, bad to good out of the box but I feel they can compete with the 13.5 boys quite happily. Look at Gray and Nobby, both 13.5 consistently throwing in quick 20 lap pace. Now look at the likes of Rob, Les and myself running brushed 19t we were all about the same pace. Dan and me with 19BR, could mix it with the prostock 10.5 through most of the season but were consistently out paced particularly towards the end of a run. Now Dan's on 10.5 i'm scared!
I've bought a 17.5 so if i turn up and no-one is running prostock then I can run with the majority, which goes to prove a point that despite an upturn in numbers more classes dilutes the field. Adam's right until we have a huge turnout every week we should just stick to stock 17/ 27 and prostock 13, 19 and 10 in an F style as one class. The downfall comes when you try and mix formula i.e 13 one week and 10 the next. Each time you book in you'll need to state what formula you want to run in.
Right enough car talk i'm off to watch MOTD and see if the mighty Geordies can claw a draw from Hull!
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Post by lesbaldry on Sept 14, 2008 6:20:32 GMT
Perhaps our club is too forward thinking??perhaps other clubs/BRCA avoid change and prefer to keep their heads in the dirt,who knows??...someones got to make the leap or we will all stagnate..tipical Brits ;D It would be nice for 17.5 to become popular nationaly for beginers sake,brushed is fadeing fast and entry level stock needs a replacement fast. As for us,Im with Adam! if the 17.5 proves to be the economical fun class for us,and fun is what its all about I dont realy care what others do! 90% of our racing is done at the club, some members 100%...All I would wish for is the classes not to be complicated,most seem to like stock "for obvious reasons" let the 17.5 run with Any 27t.other members who run Pro stock 10.5/13.5 tend to be the away racing gang and at the moment seem to be happy to run either motor in the same class,If thats the case then let it be!..as long as all is happy ...If your 13.5 is getting "whooped" by a 10.5 , go and buy a 10.5, after all you must have saved quid's buy now running a BL and should be able to aford one ;D ;D ;D One things for sure..If I had run brushed this year in the SLCC I would have gone through at least 15 sets of brushes and 2 motors by now and thats not including practice and club racing
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