17.5 theory

[number1dan]

i think that the majority of the club racin 17.5 is a brill idea cos as every1s motor is the same speed, the higher ability guys will race more with the rest of us thus increasing driving ability and confidence with every1 and by the time the new season starts every1 should be confident enough for most people to drive 13.5/10.5 at the same level of ability and confidence... dont u agree?

[Reuben]

i dont think its a case of confidence or ability, more choice....

as the higher speed the more of a reaction sport.
more transmission, tyre, bearing, diff wear.
and to put it bluntly....more hard work.

Sunday meetings i race for good battles, fun driving. And sure if i wana go REALLY quick ill put in the 13.5 and race with the prostock guys. But i choose 17.5 because its just easier.......

aka the Lazy class , but still can be driven quick at our track

[lesbaldry]

I think you are both correct, but importantly as you say it levels the playing field in the power stakes,it closes the ability gap (closer racing) It gives you time and confidence to play with set up,learn race craft, but most of all its fun

Take the fastest laps and lap times between 17.5 and 10.5 on Sunday.the grip wasn't good nor will it be in the winter!..best 17,5 time was 20.315, best 10.5"I think" was 20.306 " thats only half a lap!!..Best lap for Craigs 19t,15.28,best lap for my 17,5,15.29..why put in silly power when there is no grip too spin up and burn out tires,wear out your transmission and struggle to keep the over powered car on the track??unless you are a speed freak or your newly inflated ego wont allow you to run a low power motor

for the new driver..yes when the grips up, pop in your 10.5/13.5 and satisfy the need for speed,but don't be the fastest thing between marshals ;D

My theory on the 17.5...some may say it is faster but I believe its power delivery is smoother which makes the car easier to drive and there for appear faster(on our track only!!) the 17.5 can run on cheep 30 quid Lipos and keep up with the rest of the field..What more could a club racer ask for!..nothing!!

[mattsedgley]

An interesting point Dan,

I agree that 17.5 is a level playing feild, and will allow slower drivers to learn more about "race craft" from others who are generally quicker.
However i disagree that it's a lazy class.

At the weekend i ran 17.5 and it gave me the opportunity to work out what was happening to the car through the corners. it also gave me the opportunity to concentrate on lines. Without the hassle of power/punch settings and torque issues associated with 13.5

No doubt a winter of running 17.5 will improve both my ideas about car setup, and also my lines, and once again my "race craft".

On Saturday after working on the track, me and Reuben ran round the track both with 17.5s i went in front once and then we swapped places playing "tag" and there was nothing in it...we could easily stay within 2 feet of each other around all of the track with the exception of the striaght, would this be possible with a 13.5 or a 10.5 i doubt it... Whilst the staples can do it, many of the rest of us have a brain fart at some point within the 5 minutes of the race, racing 2 feet of the back of another car will no doubt improve concentration levels which will no doubt improve performance on tracks such as W/L where there are real complex series of bends / hazards to negotiate each lap to be fast.

Roll on next weekend i can't wait!

[number1dan]

some interesting points raised but wot i was getting at is how its gd 4 the club as every1s driving standard increases it'll show at the slcc and hopefully pull in sum new members

[mattsedgley]

Another good point yes dan, it would be nice if more of our clubs drivers reached the higher finals at events such as slcc. I certainly wouldn't have finished in the position i did at SLCC without the help, advice and guidence of more experienced members, it shows what a great atmosphere there is and how helpful many members are!

i'm looking forward to you getting your 17.5 now, as your one of only a few members in the club i've not had the opportunity to share the track with..

[lesbaldry]

Even if we pooled all the set up knowledge from all the best drivers in the club we would still know next to sod all ..why chase a set up on a car thats spinning up all the time in low "club day grip" and struggle to drive it? when you can fit a motor that suits the grip level and LEARN to get the best out of your car!!

There is a thread titled Xmas wish..if I could have one to come true it would be for all SHMCC racers to be within half a lap of each other ...would'nt we have fun!

17.5 the lazy class ..quite the opposite if you use it right..it should get the old grey mater working

[number1dan]

i'm looking forward to you getting your 17.5 now, as your one of only a few members in the club i've not had the opportunity to share the track with..

im looking forward to it 2 matt, i aint really raced against u and reuben b4

[lesbaldry]

Oct 14, 2008 20:45:28 GMT number1dan said:

i'm looking forward to you getting your 17.5 now, as your one of only a few members in the club i've not had the opportunity to share the track with..

im looking forward to it 2 matt, i aint really raced against u and reuben b4

If you have a few pints the night befor they may beat you too ;D

[mattsedgley]

Now now lets not get crazy here! if there's beer and girls.. thats a whole different dilema! beer, girls, morning after racing.. i know which one i'd rather have the night before a race!

[Matt Haskell]

Not too put a damper on things guys, but the only disadvantage of 17.5, is learning where to get the most out of the car (setup/driving) in those gripless conditions.

17.5 is great fun and i will be sticking with it, however if i wanted to really improve my skills then a 10.5 would sure do that.

10.5 is not cheap, not easy and certainly not ideal over the winter, but i'm sure you see where i'm coming from.

17.5 gives you 'race-craft' in terms of driving lines, carrying corner speed and some d**n close racing, but can you imagine how quick Rob, Mark, Craig and Dan are going to be with a 17.5?

Same could be said for the Staples - Graham particularly - having been used to a very quick motor, has no doubt helped with their driving skill.

Hope this post comes across how it was intended

[Reuben]

well let the 17.5 challenge begin .

it would be great if we could get detailed results for winter series, so we can see how beneficial the 17.5 is as a class (watch those lap times roll!)

oh and les, dan having a few pints??? nah these partys are all about drinking what gets u wrecked quickest......wasnt long ago i had the pleasure of attending them. But im sure dan will be sensible.

oh and dan, how u plan to get this 17.5 so quick for weekend?

ps. when is craig getting his? cos he was quick with that 19t, would be great to be able to get on the track with him and follow his line.

[Simon Crabb]

I see where you're coming from Matt, though the faster drivers already have the 'track miles' under their belts.

For less experienced drivers, of which we've had quite a lot join us this year, 17.5 is ideal, giving them controllable experience.

Not much point in using a faster motor until a driver isn't regularly completing 5 minutes without a mistake as it's even harder to keep it on the black stuff with the extra power?

[Matt Haskell]

I was hoping that what you have just said came across a little.

Agree totally!

[yellowshark]

Oh dear , looks like Team CRP are the odd ones out again . Craig really enjoyed Sunday and it seems right now that he wants to focus on 19T (aka 10.5) rather than 27t (aka 17.5). ; ie more challenging because he is learning a new craft and more fun. I would add a personal perception here that I think the new craft is car control with a different class, he still has a lot of race craft to learn and what engine class you use has little impact on many elements of race craft ( a very broad statement but I think you know what I mean). One important point here I think is that where your fun comes from depends on where you are on the learning curve. The fact that most of the field were lapping him clearly didn't bother Craig in the slightest, he was at the bottom of the 19T/10.5 learning curve and enjoying getting to grips with it. Knowing Craig I suspect also that the extra speed gave him a real buzz too.


Not sure I totally agree about the tyre thing; I suspect the rear 28Rs started to go off in the last final but that was after 9 runs - 3 with 27t and 6 with 19t and that doesn't seem bad to me. I know Dan makes a set last all season but we never do more than 2 meets with same tyres before consigning them to practice and Q1 tyres. Of course I have to admit we blew the engine but having had several conversations at the track prior to the event and thinking it through afterwards I strongly suspect the Chief Mechanic had the ESC setup totally incorrectly, aligning it to the track rather than the then unknown characteristics of the engine. Doh.

[yellowshark]

Oct 14, 2008 21:57:02 GMT Simon Crabb said:

I see where you're coming from Matt, though the faster drivers already have the 'track miles' under their belts.

For less experienced drivers, of which we've had quite a lot join us this year, 17.5 is ideal, giving them controllable experience.

Not much point in using a faster motor until a driver isn't regularly completing 5 minutes without a mistake as it's even harder to keep it on the black stuff with the extra power?

Never a truer word spoken Simon

[lesbaldry]

Learn to walk befor running...we are ALL still walking with skills,race craft and set up..Fact! thats why we are still club drivers with out works sponsored drives.

The 17.5 has more than enough grunt to sort out the small handeling problems on our little track..If the day is hot with lots of grip then thats the time to play with more horses and tune the car but the basics must be there in the first place..no point in putting 500 Hp in a formula ford on a small slipery track and trying to make it grip..you will be wasteing you time trying

There is no point in having "car control" if the chassis is not tuned to the given track and fitting more horses wont make you much faster,set up is the key Pete,Craig has the skills but the cars not quite right mate..less time skimming more time on set up detail ;D LoL

Matt H..Grey and Barry are primeraly lower wind /stock drivers and are both very very quick,there skills do count for a lot but its the car prep and spot on set up that makes them both quick,I think you will find they also think 10.5 is too fast for our track ,I also understand that they feel the same way I do regarding the 17.5 as a good winter class.

[Mark Townsend]

At the end of the day people will race what they enjoy. As long as the driver enjoys his class why worry about wearing out the car?

Suggest to beginners they run 27BR or 17.5 BL but you'll never force people into classes. Just have them available for people to race in.

Having spoken to CML yesterday about 17.5 they were amazed anyone is running them as they don't see it a viable class and aren't importing them.

Me I love the speed of the 10.5 and i'm running the old tyres from the SLCC. The beauty of lipo BL is I can concentrate on car set up and getting the old tyres to work well. And more importantly having a chinwag with everyone in the pits!

[lesbaldry]

With the slow demise of the 27t motor ,what would any one suggest to a new driver to use,a 10.5? so he can batter his car to bits and wear out parts twice as fast?and hurt the pocket!!

If CML and others think the 17.5 is not a viable class then it seems that in the near future GB club racing will not have an entry class motor....I say to them Take a GOOD look at the US and ROAR!!!..

Its up to forward thinking clubs to promote a new class other wise we will always be "heads in the sand" as in the past..Allways consider the new driver.

As mark says you cant force anyone into a class"no one is!" but new drivers look upon advise/help and a common sense approach to our hobby from experienced drivers ,thats why we have a flourishing good fun club!!

[oldtimeracer]

Well I certainly hope the 17.5 class is kept at least for our club as that is all I intend to do over the winter and hopefully into next year.

[lesbaldry]

This is a copy of my PM reply to Mark T who is posting on race chat regarding the popularity of the 17.5

Good Idea Mark,If the governing body's drop an entry level class "and clubs will follow suit" I fear for the future of our hobby,how on earth can a new driver learn skills/set up with a motor (10.5/13.5) thats basically a mod from a very few years ago!...we/us do need a entry level class.

Racing has always had an entry level...why drop it because brushed is on its way out...find an alternative "Idiots" ..the U.S have!!...they are also thinking of introducing a 21.5 as a junior entry level..they be thinking of younger racers too

Unfortunatly whats voted in at the governing bodys is nomaly done by top level racers that are only interested with their class and have little or no thought for newby,s or their own roots ..as long as we are having fun with the 17.5 and its a good introduction to BL and a steeping stone for the other classes,thats all that maters...bunch of Donkeys bums ;D ;D ;D

[yellowshark]

Oct 15, 2008 7:04:00 GMT @lesbaldry said:

There is no point in having "car control" if the chassis is not tuned to the given track and fitting more horses wont make you much faster,set up is the key Pete,...

Agree entirely Les but mixed messages there mate. ;)You stood beside me and commented that whilst the 10.5 was pulling Craig on the straight, how much better balanced his car was and how much extra speed it was carrying through turn 2 and the complex. Which of course does not mean the car is 100% and was more likely aimed at the other car, but implies it is not too bad.

The car sure is not 100% as we have only done one day's testing since getting the car on the track in January vs probably 30+ days last year; something I hope we can rectify this winter. It will probably never be 100% because Craig's interest does not lay that way, at least at the moment, and I cannot "feel" the car and he cannot articulate it to me.

At the end of the day as long as the car is pretty good he is happy and enjoys himself and going faster increases that enjoyment. There are 3 conditions; loose, OK, great. A Spanish inquisition will normally eventually elicit which area is “loose”, on the very rare occasion it might explain why it is just OK rather than great.

He made quite a few notable mistakes on Sunday, not surprising really, but apart from two of them, they were all due to whomever redid the thermometer, making it an inch longer ;D

[lesbaldry]

Oct 15, 2008 12:48:35 GMT yellowshark said:

Oct 15, 2008 7:04:00 GMT @lesbaldry said:

There is no point in having "car control" if the chassis is not tuned to the given track and fitting more horses wont make you much faster,set up is the key Pete,...

Agree entirely Les but mixed messages there mate. ;)You stood beside me and commented that whilst the 10.5 was pulling Craig on the straight, how much better balanced his car was and how much extra speed it was carrying through turn 2 and the complex. Which of course does not mean the car is 100% and was more likely aimed at the other car, but implies it is not too bad. :

And it was too but it suffered else where"very noticable"...blame Rob for the extra inch ;D

[yellowshark]

Les there is a lot right in what you say but I think there is another element here, which is important for those that do not follow this stuff.

What gets voted on by the BRCA is broadly only what its members submit to the AGM. And yes I assume a BRCA official is a member and can submit a proposal.

I suggested several months back that people here put in a proposal to the AGM for 17.5 but no-one took it up. We could have/should have also used our contacts to drum up some support from other clubs.

The reality is that SHMCC is in the minority (of 1?) on 17.5 at the moment. That does not mean we are wrong - on any change someone has to be the initial visionary who mobilises thought and support.

BUT we have not done that.

NOW there is another perspective. One might hope/assume that the governing body does something on this subject of beginner’s class for the future of the hobby, that’s what they are there for right? - I agree with your sentiment entirely – we should not really have to do anything – or should we? I do though get the impression from various posts from BRCA members that it isn’t like this and that they are there to represent their member’s views. There is of course an upside to this stance too.

Look, I don’t disagree with anything you said, its just that for one part there is a due process which we have not taken advantage of – we could have at least got the subject on the AGM agenda; not with words like we want 17.5 but with words along the lines of we want to save the sport by promoting the new entrants class strongly and with the move away from brushed, 17.5 is proposed as a cheap, effective and comparable performance to 27T. Whether or not we should have to do this is maybe a different point and quite possibly a more important point – why are the BRCA not doing anything positive to promote our hobby. Well they are of course eg the Club Week thing. But yes they have let the entrance class swim this year.


Final interesting point. I got an email from a BRCA official at the weekend. He was talking about having great plans for the Juniors in 2009, admitting that the new more inexperienced BRCA committee had left it a bit late this year. One wonders what classes they might decide on for this in 2009.

Now you may have missed the BRCA AGM but it is possible to lobby via Race Chat on this one. Col and I did that this year to get Lipos voted in for the Juniors.

[yellowshark]

Yeah thanks Rob ;D I am thinking of posting a video on Tube on how not to take the thermometer. In one final I think Craig scored 5 hits and 2 severe brakes to avoid hit.

[Simon Crabb]

Here's the thread on 17.5s on RCRaceChat, feel free to contribute if you use that forum.

www.rcracechat.com/vb/showthread.php?t=45491

[lesbaldry]

In the past myself and perhaps other forward thinking people have proposed and voted "an item"..but it was always squashed that year to sudenly reappear the next year as someone"in power" elses idea..how odd ...so I gave up and suffered like the rest of us!!...politics

[Simon Crabb]

As I've heard Lloydy say on more than one occasion "Love the racing, hate the politics."

[Mark Townsend]

Thermometer is the same length as before it's just that Craig is now arriving at the end a lot quicker!

Not sure where politics has suddenly sprung from. All the decisions made by me for SLCC and previous years at SHMCC have been done to keep the racers happy, the club afloat and nothing else. The AGM is where major decisions are made and made by all those who attend so decisions may not always go with what the individual wants. In the future peoples ideas may change, new racers may arrive and decisions may get reversed.

Looking forward to this years AGM already...

[Simon Crabb]

I think Les was meaning at a BRCA AGM sort of level Mark?