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Post by oldtimeracer on Dec 5, 2008 13:47:13 GMT
Well with Honda already pulled out of F1 for cost reasons and several others being worried about the same thing it looks like we could be in for a cheaper version in the next few years. There is already the prospect of a "supplier" engine and even if you do not take the engine supplied you can only tune your own engine to the same maximum performance as the supplier engie will have. You will also have to use the same gearbox as everyone else. Spankie and the Poison Dwarf have other exciting plans up their sleeves to make F1 even cheaper and slower up to the point where it could end up with every team running exactly the same car just in different colours.
Is that really what everyone wants?
Are we losing what is supposed to be the pinnacle of technological achievment, maximum performance, highest speeds etc.
What do you think?
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Post by Reuben on Dec 5, 2008 14:02:29 GMT
max speeds / performance / techno achievements are only ever good for the true followers and the teams.
F1 will become more a spectator sport now, which probably means dumbing it down and making it possible for every car to have a chance of winning - closer unpredictable racing is what the average public will want..... thats what they will get?
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Post by lesbaldry on Dec 5, 2008 15:49:51 GMT
As for highest speeds,drivers safety has to be paramount..Cutting edge of Technology,yes keep it that way,after all what we are driving today stem's from that technology.
But what ever Spanky and the dwarf get up to it will be to line their pockets....sack em both!!
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Post by yellowshark on Dec 5, 2008 16:32:50 GMT
Ian, I think that probably, and that is only a probably, that the engine point may be a red herring. Current engines are manufactured within a set of rules and broadly speaking there is little difference in power output between the units although I accept eg that the Renault unit was down 40-50hp at some point. I think a lot of the advantage comes form the software and I had assumed, possibly incorrectly, that software mapping was still going to happen. Whether we are dropping from the pinnacle I guess depends on where this new standard engine is set in relation to current engine performance. Also don’t forget this “backward” move has happened before, eg the demise of the turbo engines. And we have an engine development freeze anyway so what’s new.
My take would be on two things.
Most of the performance difference seems to come from aero, chassis setup and how the tyres are used and I do not think any of that is changing in terms of teams being able to develop their own valid interpretation of the rules.
The reduction of rear aero and the other aero bits bodes well in terms of increasing overtaking capability, although I did read today someone’s quote (from the pit lane) about designing something that would disturb the airflow so that a following car would suffer anyway!
F1 has a history and talent for designing around and beyond the rules so I am not worried about it becoming dumbed down into an average race series rather than the pinnacle – it won’t. Equally they can ignore the realities of world economics.
I think I would take a different personal view to post Reuben – don’t have it in front of me – but I follow F1 because it is the pinnacle not because the racing is exciting - but the racing can be and often is I would suggest. At the end of the day if F1 does not excite someone then they should watch something else, such as Touring cars, whoops that’s got a bit boring over the past 5 years!, not dumbing it down at the expense of fans who appreciate everything involved. Unfortunately Valencia is a no no, as bad as Turkey but then Nigel’s run there back in 1989? can only be classified as super exciting – racing Ayrton down the home straight with half a cm between their wheels wow. And don’t forget that F1 is not just for the TV viewers, it is for the attendees. Most would consider Monaco to be quite boring, well I was there in 1993 and it was awesome; the noise reverberating off the buildings, the very scantily clad long legged tanned Italian chicks, Nigel (following his puncture) up Ayrton’s jacksie for the last 6 laps; breathtaking.
At the end of the day more overtaking AT THE FRONT is needed. Hopefully, the aero change will promote this and more power from even more expensive “pinnacle” engines will not. It could be that the poison dwarf’s idea of gold/silver/bronze will also add more spectacle at the front of the grid, or we go back to the old system of a 4 point difference between 1st and 2nd. BUT you could argue that the 2 point difference has worked with the championship now often going to the wire before the winner is known
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Gary
Hitting the Tyre
BLUE
Posts: 40
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Post by Gary on Dec 5, 2008 16:34:05 GMT
Here Here Les sack em!
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Post by yellowshark on Dec 5, 2008 16:35:34 GMT
Equally they can ignore the realities of world economics. Of course should read "...cannot ignore..." |
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Post by yellowshark on Dec 5, 2008 16:46:00 GMT
Hmn, well without Berni I don't think F1 would have achieved the level of spectacle and following it has. And as for Oberleutnant Moseley, who I dislike significantly, well he personally and the organisation he heads have done an awful lot for motosport over the years and he has shown much greater vision and understanding than the squabbling team leaders
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Post by catapult on Dec 5, 2008 17:53:05 GMT
F1 absolutely boring no overtaking total bias 2wards ferrari and most races won in the pits
MOTO GP rocks apart from casey stoner and ducati . 250bhp in something that weighs the same as a j cloth THATS MOTORSPORT . F1 isnt the spectacle it used to be its now just an overpriced over rated farce
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Post by TryHard on Dec 5, 2008 18:11:32 GMT
Sorry Pete, can't help but pick it apart a bit.... Ian, I think that probably, and that is only a probably, that the engine point may be a red herring. Current engines are manufactured within a set of rules and broadly speaking there is little difference in power output between the units although I accept eg that the Renault unit was down 40-50hp at some point. I think a lot of the advantage comes form the software and I had assumed, possibly incorrectly, that software mapping was still going to happen. Whether we are dropping from the pinnacle I guess depends on where this new standard engine is set in relation to current engine performance. Also don’t forget this “backward” move has happened before, eg the demise of the turbo engines. And we have an engine development freeze anyway so what’s new. Actually a lot of the performance difference came from the fuels and lubrication systems. There is a very limited amount of software mapping allowed, purely because all the teams have to run the same ECU unit (supplied by McLaren Technologies...  ) Your also forgetting the tyres... basically, the intention of the '09 rules is to increase the mechanical grip, whilst also making the cars less dependant on aero (in both outright downforce terms and sensitivity... hence the removal of all the winglets etc). Don't be suprised by the dirty wake comment... it already goes on, with some cars having rear wings specifically designed to have a dirty airflow off the back of the car. I'm actually of the same opinion, I love the technical challenge of the formula... however, the dumbing down of certain aspects is a worry... but I guess at times like these, needs must. Anyway, in some respect, I feel F1 has been overtaking by Le Mans in terms of technical innovation (witness the hybrids, and Diesels), if not the detail. What... Turkey's a great track.. still unsure about Valencia, but give it another year, the 09 cars should be better suited to it (more mechanical grip) 1991 Spain  You mean 1992? Mansell was in Indy cars in '93, Prost was in the Willams  The medal idea, IMO, is unsuiting of F1 completely... what happens to the smaller teams, who for getting a point is like a victory? They have no chance if it's just 1st 2nd and 3rd getting. A lot of it still depends on the attitude of the drivers, some will be happy to sit there and take the points, others not... Always has been, always will be, nothing new  |
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Post by TryHard on Dec 5, 2008 18:14:40 GMT
F1 absolutely boring no overtaking total bias 2wards ferrari and most races won in the pits MOTO GP rocks apart from casey stoner and ducati . 250bhp in something that weighs the same as a j cloth THATS MOTORSPORT . F1 isnt the spectacle it used to be its now just an overpriced over rated farce What your issue with Stoner and Ducati? It's obviously not an easy bike to ride...witness Capirossi and Melandri, both winners being no where near Stoner, so the kid has obvious talent. Hayden has also mention it's a beast to ride from the testing he's done so far... Throw in the scaphoid injurgy for the last few races, and he did rather well to finish second.... Rossi is still the best, certainly, but Stoner is not far behind... not far behind at all... which is a GOOD thing!  |
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Post by catapult on Dec 5, 2008 18:31:39 GMT
casey was a very likeable lad when riding 125s here learning his craft a fantastic 250 rider but then again so was pedrobot . he was even good on the honda which he fell off quite a lot had a fantastic first year with ducati . so why has he become a boring whinging ungracious little s&$t should try conversing with his fans a bit. as for ducati i fear a repeat of the fiasco in wsbk when ducati dominated i wouldnt like to see a field of all italian bikes again no problems with the machine bought 1 tracked 1 crashed 1. casey has talent but cant race midpack rossi is still the superstar hes always been its nice to see him have some competition because you now see someone at the top of his game....
I MISS F1 THE WAY IT WAS BUT BERNIE AND MAX RUINED IT
SO VIVA MOTOGP
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Post by yellowshark on Dec 5, 2008 18:57:55 GMT
Thanks Ed, picking things apart are what forums are all about Couple of points. I thought that the Renault capability to out-accelerate other cars out of corners was a software thing? Hence my comment. If it wasn't then I stand corrected ;D Diesel - hphmph phooey thew. What would be the fun if you could go to sleep at Maison Blanche and stay asleep! 1991 Spain. Really! I must be confusing it with Nige's wheel coming off or rear suspension failing - that was Hungary , yes? View on Turkey stays! Have yet to see a F1 race on Spanish soil that has done anything other than send me to sleep. 1992? For some reason I had it in my mind it was the year before Ayrton died  I stand corrected 1st/2nd/3rd - I forget the article but were the teams not getting points for the constructors championship? The point, in my view, is that Bernie always flies a kite and then comes in with the sucker blow and something along these lines would find favour with me! |
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Post by yellowshark on Dec 5, 2008 19:28:55 GMT
I MISS F1 THE WAY IT WAS BUT BERNIE AND MAX RUINED IT SO VIVA MOTOGP Hey Pete you must be referring back to the 70s, 60s & 50's when someone got killed every other race. Are you sure you miss that? I suspect not. Did Mosely really ruin F1 by setting up the F1 safety commission? I can't help thinking Kubica would not be with us today without it. As for Bernie, well he created modern day F1; have the past 20-25years been that bad? |
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Post by TryHard on Dec 5, 2008 23:48:55 GMT
Thanks Ed, picking things apart are what forums are all about Couple of points. I thought that the Renault capability to out-accelerate other cars out of corners was a software thing? Hence my comment. If it wasn't then I stand corrected ;D Ready for the technical bit.... The supreme traction by the Renaults had a lot more to do with their f/r weight bias than anything else. They had figured out that the Michleins had very good longitudinal grip, so designed their car heavily around making the most of that, with the CoG and aero centre of pressure the most rearward of all the teams(the two need to be close together for a good balance). This lead to a lot of rear end development (Reanault were the first to introduce the funky rear wing endplates which curved into the wing planes... all about making the rear of the car work harder). It worked, as they won two titles... however, with the switch to the control bridgestones, they were struggling, as these require a more forward balance to work, along with a much further forward centre of pressure on the aero side (read that as making the front wing work harder) On another point, that rearward balance development path helped mask the lack of torque and power their engine was developing...opps! Well, that is a point, although the 908 is, IMO, a stunner.... Still have fond memories of '03 (bentley win), although my favourite memoray was standing at Terte Rouge at 5am, with a Panoz literally thundering by and shaking the leaves of the trees... awesome. |
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Post by yellowshark on Dec 6, 2008 0:13:17 GMT
although my favourite memoray was standing at Terte Rouge at 5am, with a Panoz literally thundering by and shaking the leaves of the trees... awesome. Oh yes; it was 5am coffee and croissants at Arnage for me Ed. But I have to say, without any bias, honestly, that it was awsome until the works C5R arrived in 2000 and took the Panoz crown away. At about 5.45 with just a smidgen of light to show the mist, you could hear the Vette half down the soddin' Mulsanne straight from there. Eery or what. |
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Post by oldtimeracer on Dec 8, 2008 9:58:36 GMT
Well I think you could all be right in one way or another.
There is no doubt that whatever the governing body do to slow down the cars the technical guys will find a way around it. That is why we constantly see lap records being broken year after year. I believe though that this is a good thing as it means the technical wizardry improves year on year and some of that must flow down to normal cars eventually.
The "disruptive air flow" rear wing arrangement has been around a while and nowadays teams and designers work around it. Will be interesting to see how the new aero rules work out.
I am certainly not a devout believer in diesel though as good as it may be.
The new aero packages and the slick tyres will be a positive for next year hopefully giving more driver input and better "racing".
I for one will continue to watch F1 in 2009 and beyond. I love it regardless and for those who are not sure about it, you should go to a live GP and watch and listen. If that does not convince you then nothing will. Especially places like Monaco or Spa.
Being in the motorcycle industry of course Moto GP is something I have been watching/involved with for many years. It is very exciting and yes there are many more overtakes at times. However in the main it is little different to F1. The big teams with the big bucks tend to win out in the end, the top racers are always at the front regardless of whether they have ulitimately the best equipment. Sometimes it can be close racing but many times it is a procession. The spectacle is great as the danger is possibly greater than F1 but it can also be dominated by one man like F1 and Senna or Scumacher we have Rossi. Natural talent wins out always.
Interesting comments though in this thread.
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Post by oldtimeracer on Dec 9, 2008 10:48:45 GMT
Looking at the latest news I see there is some talk about the "retirement" of Honda having a snowball effect. It seems there are other teams that may be leaving or is it just speculation and scare mongering I wonder.
Button has been talking to Toro Rosso apparently just in case someone does not take on the Honda team in time for next season. One of the news sites states Button is due a test in the Toro Rosso in the next few weeks. Who knows.
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)
I stand corrected