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Jan 11, 2009 20:25:03 GMT
Post by Jazzler on Jan 11, 2009 20:25:03 GMT
Hi Everyone,
I plan to head over to Reality Racing tomorrow and purchase a few bits. Can anyone tell me what motor (27T Stock) will be right for a Cyclone Hara Edtn.? On the RR website I have seen the Epic motor, would this be any good for Bashley?
Also I'll need to get a pinion and spur to get the right drive ratio for the track...Any tips here? For indoors in New Milton? And Bashley?
I have been reading up on all this drive ratio stuff, (Internal, External, Final) It's all a little confusing but I think I understand the basics. I guess I'll learn it properly as I go.
Thanks in advanced.
Jas
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Jan 11, 2009 20:35:20 GMT
Post by keitheroonie on Jan 11, 2009 20:35:20 GMT
If you speak to Terry in Reality he'll put you straight on everything you need.
Drive ratios are very motor specific as well as track specific.
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Jan 11, 2009 20:44:14 GMT
Post by Jazzler on Jan 11, 2009 20:44:14 GMT
If you speak to Terry in Reality he'll put you straight on everything you need. Drive ratios are very motor specific as well as track specific. Ah, ok. Thanks Keith.
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Jan 11, 2009 21:42:15 GMT
Post by saintroeer on Jan 11, 2009 21:42:15 GMT
right the internal ratio of the car is worked out by dividing the teeth on the front and rear diff's by the number of teeth on the center pulley, in the case of the cyclone youve got this is 39/16 = 2.4375
the final drive ratio uses this figure and the size of you pinion and spur gear. use this formula spur gear / pinion * internal = fdr
each motor will have a range for its fdr that it will work best in, this will be slightly different for each motor of the same type too, just a Little fun and games to find out.
terry will give you a good starting point for the motors best fdr, but knowing which spurs and pinions to use is a little more tricky obviously you can get to any fdr using and combination of spurs and pinions just using numbers, but when you place them in the car the two gears need to mesh well, so certain fdrs wont be achievable using certain spurs in different cars.
for the cyclone using 64dp gears a spur of around 97 - 102 , use one of to help you achieve the range Terry gives you for the motor you buy.
hope this helps
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Jan 11, 2009 21:55:57 GMT
Post by mattsedgley on Jan 11, 2009 21:55:57 GMT
I'd suggest using 48DP personally - they strip less easily than the 64DP although I'm willing to be shouted down by others!
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Jan 11, 2009 21:57:20 GMT
Post by Jazzler on Jan 11, 2009 21:57:20 GMT
right the internal ratio of the car is worked out by dividing the teeth on the front and rear diff's by the number of teeth on the center pulley, in the case of the cyclone youve got this is 39/16 = 2.4375 the final drive ratio uses this figure and the size of you pinion and spur gear. use this formula spur gear / pinion * internal = fdr each motor will have a range for its fdr that it will work best in, this will be slightly different for each motor of the same type too, just a Little fun and games to find out. terry will give you a good starting point for the motors best fdr, but knowing which spurs and pinions to use is a little more tricky obviously you can get to any fdr using and combination of spurs and pinions just using numbers, but when you place them in the car the two gears need to mesh well, so certain fdrs wont be achievable using certain spurs in different cars. for the cyclone using 64dp gears a spur of around 97 - 102 , use one of to help you achieve the range Terry gives you for the motor you buy. hope this helps Thanks Adam, I think I understand most of that its just the "64dp gears a spur of around 97 - 102" that's a little technical for me as a novice.
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Jan 11, 2009 22:39:57 GMT
Post by saintroeer on Jan 11, 2009 22:39:57 GMT
its physically the number of teeth on the gear, 64dp is the type of spur gear as opposed to 48dp, its basically the depth of the teeth on the gears, theres quite a big difference in the overal size of the gear between a 64dp and a 48dp. get terry to show you similar gears in the shop.
for a brushed motor which you will be using 64dp will be fine but if you go brushless the extra torque of the motors mean that the deeper teeth on the 48's mean the will last longer, gears strip the teeth for fun if your not careful!
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Jan 11, 2009 23:29:49 GMT
Post by yellowshark on Jan 11, 2009 23:29:49 GMT
Hi Everyone, I plan to head over to Reality Racing tomorrow and purchase a few bits. Can anyone tell me what motor (27T Stock) will be right for a Cyclone Hara Edtn.? On the RR website I have seen the Epic motor, would this be any good for Bashley? Also I'll need to get a pinion and spur to get the right drive ratio for the track...Any tips here? For indoors in New Milton? And Bashley? I have been reading up on all this drive ratio stuff, (Internal, External, Final) It's all a little confusing but I think I understand the basics. I guess I'll learn it properly as I go. Thanks in advanced. Jas Jason if you can work out your internal ratio - should be in the instruction manual - Terry can calculate your FDR for you. 6.5-6.75 is probably the popular range for Bashley. If you are absolutely new to this stuff then 7.0 upwards will probably be a better starting point. If Terry gives you a Team Racing 1 engine, we run that at about 6.7 but the Team 1 CO27 engine we run around 6.40
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Jan 12, 2009 8:52:03 GMT
Post by Jazzler on Jan 12, 2009 8:52:03 GMT
saintroeer - That makes more sense to me now :-)
yellowshark - I think my internal drive ratio is = 2.4375 (Quote saintroeer), I will look it up in the manual though just to make sure.
I'll have a chat with Terry later and see what stock and advice (Motor specific) he can give me.
Thanks for the heads up guys,
Jas
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Jan 12, 2009 12:41:59 GMT
Post by Jazzler on Jan 12, 2009 12:41:59 GMT
Reality Racing is closed on Mondays.. I guess I should have checked on the website. {Jason shy's away in the corner feeling stupid}
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Jan 12, 2009 15:23:19 GMT
Post by James Calland on Jan 12, 2009 15:23:19 GMT
Hi Jason, now I am still a new joiner only being with the club abt 2 months now but I have been in ur position asking all the same questions and I have got a lot of helpful good answers back. From what I have been recommended from others at the club and speaking with terry. The Losi xceleroni (excuse spelling) is a popular choice at bashley outdoors- its a very torquey motor that requires slightly higher gearing in order to get a good speed down the straights.And to solve power out of the corners increased throttle punch help increase lost punch because of the gear setup- i actually run this motor and im just starting to break into the high 18 second laps with the really fast guys doing low 17/ high 16s. When i started i ran a gear ratio of 3.84 this gave good punch threw the back corners (because the engine is so torquey) and okay power down the straights- but trust me that’s more than enough power, you will find it hard to keep it in a straight line on the straight. I am now running the motor around the 3.45+ mark giving fast straight speeds (to stop some ppl overtaking) and with top throttle punch i have loads of torque and punch threw the back corners.
The other motor is the Nosram 17.5t- i have not used one personally but i know a few of the club members do, and from the advise they have given me its a very revy motor so it can be geared slightly lower around 4.0 to start then dropping down to 3.65+ to get some serious straight speed. Because its revy its great on the straight overtaking most- i know Les uses one and i love watching him overtake any car on the straight easily. But because it is so revy its can lack some punch coming out of the back corners, but this can be solved with gearing. In the end it will finally depend on your driving style and if your better threw the corners and want to make up speed on the straights maybe the Nosram is for you or if you wanna make time up through the corners then maybe the Losi is for you. The Nosram is about £10 more but i know terry uses it and recommends it. Generally most members have moved from brushed to brushless for a number of reasons and if you can manage I would recommend you do so aswell. For the Losi or Nosram you are looking between £55 and £70 and you will be in tune with 90% of the other racers at the club.
Im sure a few people will have other opinions but this is what i and a few others think.
Regards James.
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Jan 12, 2009 16:35:05 GMT
Post by Jazzler on Jan 12, 2009 16:35:05 GMT
Hi Jason, now I am still a new joiner only being with the club abt 2 months now but I have been in ur position asking all the same questions and I have got a lot of helpful good answers back. From what I have been recommended from others at the club and speaking with terry. The Losi xceleroni (excuse spelling) is a popular choice at bashley outdoors- its a very torquey motor that requires slightly higher gearing in order to get a good speed down the straights.And to solve power out of the corners increased throttle punch help increase lost punch because of the gear setup- i actually run this motor and im just starting to break into the high 18 second laps with the really fast guys doing low 17/ high 16s. When i started i ran a gear ratio of 3.84 this gave good punch threw the back corners (because the engine is so torquey) and okay power down the straights- but trust me that’s more than enough power, you will find it hard to keep it in a straight line on the straight. I am now running the motor around the 3.45+ mark giving fast straight speeds (to stop some ppl overtaking) and with top throttle punch i have loads of torque and punch threw the back corners. The other motor is the Nosram 17.5t- i have not used one personally but i know a few of the club members do, and from the advise they have given me its a very revy motor so it can be geared slightly lower around 4.0 to start then dropping down to 3.65+ to get some serious straight speed. Because its revy its great on the straight overtaking most- i know Les uses one and i love watching him overtake any car on the straight easily. But because it is so revy its can lack some punch coming out of the back corners, but this can be solved with gearing. In the end it will finally depend on your driving style and if your better threw the corners and want to make up speed on the straights maybe the Nosram is for you or if you wanna make time up through the corners then maybe the Losi is for you. The Nosram is about £10 more but i know terry uses it and recommends it. Generally most members have moved from brushed to brushless for a number of reasons and if you can manage I would recommend you do so aswell. For the Losi or Nosram you are looking between £55 and £70 and you will be in tune with 90% of the other racers at the club. Im sure a few people will have other opinions but this is what i and a few others think. Regards James. Hi James, Superb post by the way, very informative and useful for me as a newbie. I don't think I can stretch my budget to a brushless at the moment. (Although I guess that depends on Terry's sales technique when I go to the store ) A gear ratio of 3.45 - 4?? That's quite different to what others have quoted me (Around 5 - 7). From what I understand, the lower the number, the less number of times the motor has to turn to complete a cycle of the wheels?? So if you are running a 3.45, then does that mean you will have a car reaching twice the top speed of the other cars (running a 7ish ratio)? at the expense of punch and motor temperature?? If I'm way off here just ignore me and I'll go do more research into it.
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Jan 12, 2009 17:10:36 GMT
Post by James Calland on Jan 12, 2009 17:10:36 GMT
Yes the theory is correct but in practise no it doesnt quite work like that, a car with a higher ratio will have a better top speed if geared for say 3.5 than a gearing of 7 but not twice the speed unfortunatly, and i see that others have much higher gearing quotes but myself, les, matt, kieth and rueben all run under 4 as a ratio and i would say anything over 4 is no good. Most people if not all on the sunday meets are running under 4. Have a look at my post called Gearing problems everyone recommends a ratio of atleast 4 or below and if you have a look at what i wanted to start at quite like yourself you will see that it just wont work and is highly not recommnded. Start at a ratio of 4 and work you way down. Also a gearing ratio of say 3.8 would give you loads of punch more than enough to be very very fast out of corners and an okay top speed as i said you just have to keep gearing higher until you are happy with the balance of power and top end. I run around 3.4 ish maybe slightly lower or higher dependant on track conditions and my motor never reaches temps higher than 55/60 so tempurature wont be a problem with those gear set ups specially for the losi.
James
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Jan 12, 2009 17:27:44 GMT
Post by yellowshark on Jan 12, 2009 17:27:44 GMT
Guy, just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, the gearing between a 17.5 brushles motor and a 27T brushed motor is entirely different. The 17.5 will be much higher at under 4 and the 27T will be over 6
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Jan 12, 2009 17:29:40 GMT
Post by Reuben on Jan 12, 2009 17:29:40 GMT
havent read all of your post jame's not yet, will do when i get home. but thought Ide get this in quick!..
Jason you wont want to gear a brushed at 3.5 or 4....unless you want a burnt out core in one lap!
Brushless (which james is talking about) and brushed (which your planning to get) are COMPLETELY different for best ratio's...
Brushed is around 6.8 (motor dependant), Brushless 3.6 (motor dependant).
When I ran brushed I had a gear ratio of 6.7 (team1 motor).
I dont know why myself brushless is so much lower (i assume its to do with efficiency and torgue from the motor? but im probably wrong) but:
BRUSHED = 6.4 - 7.2 (motor & track dependant)
BRUSHLESS = 4.0 - 3.6 (motor & track dependant, at a safe ratio)
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Jan 12, 2009 17:36:31 GMT
Post by saintroeer on Jan 12, 2009 17:36:31 GMT
the best way to think about the motors and the reason for the large difference in the fdrs is that a brushed motor likes to rev high to get its best performance, so a lower gear ratio will allow it to do this. a brushless motor provides a far greater amount of torque and is able to do this efficiently at a higher ratio.
think about the difference between a diesel lorry and a performance petrol car. the diesel lorry has a rev counter that tops at about 5000rpm, best efficiency around 2500rpm, these motor use the engines torque to get you moving, where as a petrol car will happily rev at 6-7000rpm to get the best performance, horses for courses really.
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Jan 12, 2009 17:44:19 GMT
Post by James Calland on Jan 12, 2009 17:44:19 GMT
Guy, just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, the gearing between a 17.5 brushles motor and a 27T brushed motor is entirely different. The 17.5 will be much higher at under 4 and the 27T will be over 6 Hi yellowshark its James not guy. Jason yellow shark is right tho brushed and brushless have completly different ratios-as your aware im talking about brushless motors Regard James
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Jan 12, 2009 17:52:56 GMT
Post by Jazzler on Jan 12, 2009 17:52:56 GMT
Ok, So a brushless reaches a lower RPM, but with much more torque, and requires a low FDR to make it similar in speed to a high RPM brushed motor with a high ratio. Hence a 17.5t brushless being similar to a 27t brushed??
I did kind of think there James was talking about a brushless, however I didn't realise the ratios for brushed to brushless were so different.
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Jan 12, 2009 18:35:03 GMT
Post by yellowshark on Jan 12, 2009 18:35:03 GMT
Sorry James, it was meant to read Guys, not Guy ;D
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Jan 12, 2009 18:44:37 GMT
Post by yellowshark on Jan 12, 2009 18:44:37 GMT
Ok, So a brushless reaches a lower RPM, but with much more torque, and requires a low FDR to make it similar in speed to a high RPM brushed motor with a high ratio. Hence a 17.5t brushless being similar to a 27t brushed?? I did kind of think there James was talking about a brushless, however I didn't realise the ratios for brushed to brushless were so different. That's right Jason. General opinion at Bashley, for the Bashley track, is that the two engines are very close is performance. If you are starting out from nothing then brushless is the way to go if you can afford it - try to. If that is too big an ask right now then try to afford a brushless ESC that will run brushed motors also; then at least you are half way there I can rustle you up a 27T engine so you can put all your money into an ESC but I may not be down the track until early Feb.
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Jan 12, 2009 18:59:55 GMT
Post by lesbaldry on Jan 12, 2009 18:59:55 GMT
Jason go brushless if you can,its a lot less hassle . the difference between the price's of the two motors will soon equal out after a few rebuilds...brushed £30 brushless £55 retail, plus you will have good speed out of the box (brushed motors need lots of expensive tools and maintenance to perform)..as for speedos(the fuel injection system to your motor)get the best you can afford...unfortunatly money buys speed. Ask any of the Cyclone drivers for set up help if you need it,we all tend to run a similar set up...and!! dont be afraid to ask questions no mater how daft they may seem....we all started some where...... Ps thats sound advise from Yellowshark regarding speedo's
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Jan 12, 2009 20:00:46 GMT
Post by Jazzler on Jan 12, 2009 20:00:46 GMT
I do plan to eventually go brushless. But unless I can get a cheap one or second hand one I don't think I can just yet. I will have a sleep on it and if I decide that brushless REALLY IS worth the difference then I will go that route. Although at the moment I do already have an LRP SuperSport Speed Controller which I think is pretty good. (So I was told at the shop when I brought it.)
Anyway, If I do go brushless, knowing me I will demand the best, which always seems to be more expensive, but from what I learnt in the past with expensive purchases, you get what you pay for.
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Jan 12, 2009 20:29:56 GMT
Post by yellowshark on Jan 12, 2009 20:29:56 GMT
And on brushless too eh Les; there's hope for the old dog yet ;D
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Jan 13, 2009 17:02:28 GMT
Post by Jazzler on Jan 13, 2009 17:02:28 GMT
Ok, So I went to see Reality Racing today, Terry printed me off a gear ratio chart. I brought the Team Racing 1 engine (As I really cant stretch my budget to brushless prices yet). I also purchased a pinion and spur. I was recommended to use 48dp as its easier for a beginner to mesh and less likely to cause me problems if the motor moves a little or something (So I'm told).
Terry sold me a 35 Pinion and a 72 spur, giving me a FDR of 5.01. Im a little concerned that this might be to low of a ratio as I had a little bash outside and the motor did start to get quite warm quite quickly. I might change the pinion to a 27 which would give me a 6.5 FDR and see how that goes.
Any thoughts welcome.
Also, this meant that I had my first drive with the cyclone today. All I can say is WOW, in comparison to my old TT-01 its such a hop up. Money well spent..
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Jan 13, 2009 17:16:15 GMT
Post by lesbaldry on Jan 13, 2009 17:16:15 GMT
Ok, So I went to see Reality Racing today, Terry printed me off a gear ratio chart. I brought the Team Racing 1 engine (As I really cant stretch my budget to brushless prices yet). I also purchased a pinion and spur. I was recommended to use 48dp as its easier for a beginner to mesh and less likely to cause me problems if the motor moves a little or something (So I'm told). Terry sold me a 35 Pinion and a 72 spur, giving me a FDR of 5.01. Im a little concerned that this might be to low of a ratio as I had a little bash outside and the motor did start to get quite warm quite quickly. I might change the pinion to a 27 which would give me a 6.5 FDR and see how that goes. Any thoughts welcome. Also, this meant that I had my first drive with the cyclone today. All I can say is WOW, in comparison to my old TT-01 its such a hop up. Money well spent.. 5.01 is too low for a 27t at our outdoor track,6.5/7.0 is a safer FDR...should you want to run this motor indoors at New Milton you will need a FDR close to 8.0/8.5 (shorter track with lots of slow stop/start corners) Thats a wise choice to go 48dp..easier to mesh and will take some abuse.
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Jan 13, 2009 17:16:15 GMT
Post by keitheroonie on Jan 13, 2009 17:16:15 GMT
48DP is definately the way to go, personally I run the team 1 racing motor at around 6.85-7.16 at Bashley, I would go with a 25t pinion to start with, then maybe a 26t if the motor was still cool, that would give you a final drive of 6.75 - 7.02.
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Jan 13, 2009 17:22:06 GMT
Post by lesbaldry on Jan 13, 2009 17:22:06 GMT
And on brushless too eh Les; there's hope for the old dog yet ;D Ill believe it when I see it
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Jan 13, 2009 17:22:55 GMT
Post by saintroeer on Jan 13, 2009 17:22:55 GMT
good show, the team 1 is a solid motor
your right that an fdr of 5 is a bit low(will have words with terry) and i would reconemend maybe starting a little higher than 6.5, maybe around 7 to get you started. if your down on sunday we shall see what weve got around the pits to get you started because id be a liitle concerned that the 72/27 combination might not mesh at all, so lets find what works and you can get it once weve tested it.
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Jan 13, 2009 17:44:16 GMT
Post by Jazzler on Jan 13, 2009 17:44:16 GMT
good show, the team 1 is a solid motor your right that an fdr of 5 is a bit low(will have words with terry) and i would reconemend maybe starting a little higher than 6.5, maybe around 7 to get you started. if your down on sunday we shall see what weve got around the pits to get you started because id be a liitle concerned that the 72/27 combination might not mesh at all, so lets find what works and you can get it once weve tested it. Ah, ok, Well for now I have put the 68dp pinion and spur that the car came with (100 Spur and 36 Pinion) giving a FDR of 6.77 which should make sure I don't cook the motor before Sunday.
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Jan 13, 2009 19:08:17 GMT
Post by Reuben on Jan 13, 2009 19:08:17 GMT
if you need gearing for wednesday I have a spare 79th spur and 24th pinion if needed (which will get your to 8.03 if needed for indoors.....) but I wont be there till 6.45 traffic dependant (but option is there)
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