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Post by Jazzler on Feb 2, 2009 9:24:55 GMT
Hi Guys,
I have been looking around the net for some definitive answers, but to no avail. And if I'm serious about getting into this game, then I'm obviously going to need some serious kit to match my attitude.
For now I'm happy to use my new stock brushed motor, however as with most hobbies I will want to progress as I get more experience and it can be expensive, therefore I'm looking to start to save up for my next purchase and wanted to know what sort of budget I should be looking at, and what products to get.
Obviously brushless is the way forward, but....
a. What is the best kit to get that will perform best?
b. How much will I need to spend to get decent kit? (Is a £55 losi motor not as good as a nosram at £75, or are you just paying for the brand)
c. Anyone had any experience with the new Losi speed controller? Its priced well, but can it keep up? or Do I need to get something like a Matrix Evo?
Ultimately I want to know if a new losi speed controller and motor combo (£135) is any good, or if the twice as expensive Nosram option is worth the extra £££
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Post by lesbaldry on Feb 2, 2009 10:52:07 GMT
Hi Guys, I have been looking around the net for some definitive answers, but to no avail. And if I'm serious about getting into this game, then I'm obviously going to need some serious kit to match my attitude. For now I'm happy to use my new stock brushed motor, however as with most hobbies I will want to progress as I get more experience and it can be expensive, therefore I'm looking to start to save up for my next purchase and wanted to know what sort of budget I should be looking at, and what products to get. Obviously brushless is the way forward, but.... a. What is the best kit to get that will perform best? b. How much will I need to spend to get decent kit? (Is a £55 losi motor not as good as a nosram at £75, or are you just paying for the brand) c. Anyone had any experience with the new Losi speed controller? Its priced well, but can it keep up? or Do I need to get something like a Matrix Evo? Ultimately I want to know if a new losi speed controller and motor combo (£135) is any good, or if the twice as expensive Nosram option is worth the extra £££ The 17.5 class is probably the best class to start in so the various makes of motor should be an easy choice..out of all of the makes that are run at the club non realy stand out,for our track!! a £50 motor seems as good as any of the more expensive ones (the Losi comes too mind)..The expensive Novac, Lrp/Nosram Have yet to prove to have an advantage at other tracks. As for speedos you get what you pay for,most of the club runners use the Nosram/Lrp ISTC, this has proven to be a good speedo, but its price lately is rather steep.There is a new version due soon but I expect it to be very expensive. I think the New Losi speedo is a copy of the old Novak GTBwith some soft wear changes, This speedo was quite tough even if a little large compared to other makes but proved to perform well,the price is very atractive so may well be worth a look... The down side to the old GTB was that you only had a choice of drag brake or stick brake..most of todays speedos allow you to run drag brake ( engine braking efect) as well as adjustable stick brake ...this may be worth checking befor buying the Losi! |
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Post by mattsedgley on Feb 2, 2009 12:58:49 GMT
It's worth pointing out the Losi is a BRUSHLESS only speed controller, so wont be able to run a BRUSHED motor at all.. I've not run the Losi, but i've had it up close and personal, and at close inspection, comparing PCBs/and cases etc, it would appear to be a GTB rebadged, or rather i expect the gtb is a rebadged losi.. Its worth pointing out the Losi 13.5 has won quite a few competitions across the states, no doubt they'll be using the losi speedo aswell as the motor! Hope I've Helped  Matt |
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Post by Reuben on Feb 2, 2009 14:02:53 GMT
Im pretty sure (from setting up Karl's Losi speedo) that you can set limits for both stick and drag brake.. and these settings are from 0 - 100, so its pretty customiseable (on a laptop).
also the losi's switch, receiver cable and fan all plug into the side using those 3pin plugs (like the ones in the receiver) so easy to replace.
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Post by Jazzler on Feb 2, 2009 16:09:40 GMT
Hmmm. ok Thanks guys.
So it seems that for the most part there isn't a huge difference, or at least not enough to worry about at my level in terms of performance.
Although I like the sound of being able to customise things with my laptop, and for some reason I didnt pick up on the brushed and brushless compatibility (Thanks Matt).
I dont like the thought of prices going up all the time, but hey... What should we expect with the exchange rates being as they are.
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Post by Reuben on Feb 2, 2009 16:45:25 GMT
I may be sticking my neck out, but how many times have any of us used our brushless speedo's with a brushed motor? as we only change from brushless if its wet - and if your not using your brushless motor at £60 incase it gets wet and dies then your not gona run a non-water proof £170 + speedo! your going to use a waterproof brushed speedo.....
unless your planning on running brushed in the dry, then I would say that the brushless/brushed compatability is pretty useless??
but its a good backup if you blowup your brushless motor, which i doubt you will...
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Post by mattsedgley on Feb 2, 2009 17:23:17 GMT
Without this turning into a debate about brushed or brushless/brushed speedo. As an example SLCC rules imply you can use 27T and 17.5 in the stock class, at some tracks, and I emphasize SOME tracks you may like to try running a 27T for different performance characteristics.
Back to the original questions (I think)
The Losi priced at £123.50 is a good price, particularly when you consider a 10% club discount from Reality Racing, I'm sure if you enquired a "combo" pack could be purchased with a Losi 17.5
Looking Back through the archive, Me and Simon Crabb did dome poking around the Losi and found it to be a pretty tasty little motor. We both picked one up at about £56 quid I think, I know Reality Racing have had more than 10 in stock and they've all gone.
Whilst I like others on the forum are new AKA only been racing for 6months or so, some very experienced racers are now raving about how good the Losi 17.5 motor is! I'm sure Les would support the Losi, as would simon (there's an rc tool that has one also)
If anything happened to my Sphere I'm certain that I'd give the Losi a go.
Hope the information Helps.
If in doubt follow your heart, and attempt not to buy everything under the sun!
Matt
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Post by keitheroonie on Feb 2, 2009 18:16:44 GMT
I may be sticking my neck out, but how many times have any of us used our brushless speedo's with a brushed motor? as we only change from brushless if its wet - and if your not using your brushless motor at £60 incase it gets wet and dies then your not gona run a non-water proof £170 + speedo! your going to use a waterproof brushed speedo..... unless your planning on running brushed in the dry, then I would say that the brushless/brushed compatability is pretty useless?? but its a good backup if you blowup your brushless motor, which i doubt you will... Hey Reubes, you'd better wind your neck back in ;D ;D ;D I've used all 3 of my speedos on both brushed and brushless, that's the reason I bought those particular speedos (GTBx2/ISTC).   |
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Post by Martin Young on Feb 2, 2009 19:06:04 GMT
I've used all 3 of my speedos on both brushed and brushless, that's the reason I bought those particular speedos (GTBx2/ISTC). The only comment I would have with the Losi is, if it is based on the GTB, I have found with the GTB if you reduce the punch value too much on a 17.5 then it can be prone to cogging. The software upgrade however may have fixed that. Keith have you run a GTB with a 17.5? Have you reduced the punch value and found the same? Martin |
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Post by mattsedgley on Feb 2, 2009 22:25:59 GMT
I run GTB, i've never had cogging problems.. (when I plug the sensor lead in) Matt |
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Post by lesbaldry on Feb 3, 2009 8:03:13 GMT
The Losi 17.5 gets my vote!..its as fast as any of my other motors "at our track"
Tip..just make sure your chassis's internal ratio can make/mesh a gear ratio of at least 3.4 (3.0 for bigger tracks)..or you may have the added expence of different pullys and belts
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Post by Jazzler on Feb 3, 2009 12:40:49 GMT
The Losi 17.5 gets my vote!..its as fast as any of my other motors "at our track" Tip..just make sure your chassis's internal ratio can make/mesh a gear ratio of at least 3.4 (3.0 for bigger tracks)..or you may have the added expence of different pullys and belts Hmm.. Good point. Thanks. |
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Post by Simon Crabb on Feb 3, 2009 14:07:20 GMT
Only 3.0? I think we'll be seeing ratios well into the 2.x's in 2009 in 17.5...
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Post by lesbaldry on Feb 3, 2009 15:33:43 GMT
Only 3.0? I think we'll be seeing ratios well into the 2.x's in 2009 in 17.5... LRP STD timing 2.94 at the Cotswolds....just as fast as any 27t Bashley 10.5 FDR 4.7....Cotswolds 10.5 FDR 4.4 |
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Post by Reuben on Feb 3, 2009 15:54:05 GMT
in-advertently Les you have answered my question as to whever i need to go buy smaller spurs! and some more pinions!  |
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Post by lesbaldry on Feb 3, 2009 16:35:16 GMT
in-advertently Les you have answered my question as to whever i need to go buy smaller spurs! and some more pinions! Good! ...I doubt If we will drop much below 3.0???"hopefully"... I tested a 17.5 on our largest track and It was as fast as any stock,the motor came in at a good working temp too..the next bigest track is Aldershot and in my experiance of runing there the FDR's were only about 0.2/3 different from Bashley (10.5) My gut feeling is Ruebs if you cover down to 2.7 ish that should do for all makes of 17.5s..."you can kick me if Im wrong...not too hard!" The little low reving 17.5 only delivers a certain amount of power..gearing it "to the moon " wont make it any faster. I think??? the way to get good "top end " speed at the larger tracks is to advance the timing(gain RPM loose torque) If this is done you will probably be back close to Bashley FDR'S any way???..Its all new to us,I look forward to experimenting |
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Post by James Calland on Feb 3, 2009 18:03:54 GMT
Les am i right in saying that the losi 17.5 has fixed timing? but you can change it through a speedo that has the capability? but the losi wont benefit fron it anyway?
James
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Post by Reuben on Feb 3, 2009 18:47:10 GMT
well Les currently on order I fancied trying Trinity's new 17.5's, they have a easily adjustable backplate for advancing the timing, with marks to show by how far.....we will see if its a bag of poo or gold dust!. 2.7  imagine trying to get that in a standard WCE cyclone without the upgraded pulleys! now that would almost be 1 : 1. its gona be early starts on the saturdays to try to find the perfect gearing / timing for certain tracks for these new motors, then the afternoon to worry about setup |
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Post by keitheroonie on Feb 3, 2009 18:48:50 GMT
I've used all 3 of my speedos on both brushed and brushless, that's the reason I bought those particular speedos (GTBx2/ISTC). The only comment I would have with the Losi is, if it is based on the GTB, I have found with the GTB if you reduce the punch value too much on a 17.5 then it can be prone to cogging. The software upgrade however may have fixed that. Keith have you run a GTB with a 17.5? Have you reduced the punch value and found the same? Martin Hi Martin, Ollie runs a GTB with an X11 LRP motor and I haven't had any cogging problems going forward, it doesn't like reverse though, it coggs like you wouldn't believe. |
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Post by mattsedgley on Feb 3, 2009 19:22:29 GMT
its gona be early starts on the saturdays to try to find the perfect gearing / timing for certain tracks for these new motors, then the afternoon to worry about setup A fine mentor once said to me - get the car handling and worry about speed later... moments later I clobbered a rather nice sponsored driver - Darn those slack servohorns! Matt PS has this been thread Jacked yet?? |
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Post by lesbaldry on Feb 3, 2009 20:01:01 GMT
Les am i right in saying that the losi 17.5 has fixed timing? but you can change it through a speedo that has the capability? but the losi wont benefit fron it anyway? James Yes the Losi is fixed and yes the timing is adjusted via the punch setting some what, but most of us run with max punch any way..so perhaps a motor with adjustable timing may be an advantage on a larger track?  (yet to be tested and proven) The Losi is a strange little motor,even though its cheap it proved to be one of the most powerfull when Dyno tested (in watts) with only the Novac beating it but it had a very odd effective RPM range(a RPM figure that has the best mix of power output and torque) which did not make sense when compared to other motors that were tested...basicaly the Losi has a very narrow "sweet spot" ie the gearing has to be perfect to make it "sing"!! Going by the Dyno figures I took a guess at gearing the Losi at 3.35, the performance was not too impressive,but a change as little as moving the FDR to 3.42 made a vast difference. |
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Post by Jazzler on Feb 3, 2009 21:03:16 GMT
The Losi 17.5 gets my vote!..its as fast as any of my other motors "at our track" Tip..just make sure your chassis's internal ratio can make/mesh a gear ratio of at least 3.4 (3.0 for bigger tracks)..or you may have the added expence of different pullys and belts Ok, please don't shoot me down for this comment, but... Am I right in thinking that if I wanted to go brushless, then I should be looking at getting my internal ratio down to the same as the TC (2.167). And to do this I should buy the Centre Pulleys from the TC (HB66492)? As my current car is ultimately designed for brushed (Higher revving but lower torque) motors? |
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Post by keitheroonie on Feb 3, 2009 22:51:54 GMT
The Losi 17.5 gets my vote!..its as fast as any of my other motors "at our track" Tip..just make sure your chassis's internal ratio can make/mesh a gear ratio of at least 3.4 (3.0 for bigger tracks)..or you may have the added expence of different pullys and belts Ok, please don't shoot me down for this comment, but... Am I right in thinking that if I wanted to go brushless, then I should be looking at getting my internal ratio down to the same as the TC (2.167). And to do this I should buy the Centre Pulleys from the TC (HB66492)? As my current car is ultimately designed for brushed (Higher revving but lower torque) motors? Good question Jason, it would be an advantage on a 17.5 to have the larger pullies but not necessary to start with, especially not for Bashley, I have been running a Novak 17.5 in my worlds (same internal as Hara) with no problems. |
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Post by saintroeer on Feb 3, 2009 22:53:51 GMT
The Losi 17.5 gets my vote!..its as fast as any of my other motors "at our track" Tip..just make sure your chassis's internal ratio can make/mesh a gear ratio of at least 3.4 (3.0 for bigger tracks)..or you may have the added expence of different pullys and belts Ok, please don't shoot me down for this comment, but... Am I right in thinking that if I wanted to go brushless, then I should be looking at getting my internal ratio down to the same as the TC (2.167). And to do this I should buy the Centre Pulleys from the TC (HB66492)? As my current car is ultimately designed for brushed (Higher revving but lower torque) motors? right jason, wait for keith to confirm, but i beleive he has been running the worlds internal, and has reached some fairly low ratios, suitable for most tracks and motors, some of the seriously low numbers would be track and motor specific and not general usage at the moment. so dont worry too much. as for changing the internal, you are right you have to change the centre pulleys, but also front and rear belts which obviously at least doubles the cost of the upgrade! |
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Post by saintroeer on Feb 3, 2009 22:56:00 GMT
Ok, please don't shoot me down for this comment, but... Am I right in thinking that if I wanted to go brushless, then I should be looking at getting my internal ratio down to the same as the TC (2.167). And to do this I should buy the Centre Pulleys from the TC (HB66492)? As my current car is ultimately designed for brushed (Higher revving but lower torque) motors? Good question Jason, it would be an advantage on a 17.5 to have the larger pullies but not necessary to start with, especially not for Bashley, I have been running a Novak 17.5 in my worlds (same internal as Hara) with no problems. will you pls wait for me to finish typing kieth |
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Post by mattsedgley on Feb 3, 2009 22:58:57 GMT
It's worth mentioning spurs are now available down to 50, possibly lower i'm not to sure.. and pinions are available well into the high 40s... so if you needed to run a 50 pinion and a 50 spur they'd be available, wether you can mesh them is another story! Matt |
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Post by Simon Crabb on Feb 3, 2009 23:58:57 GMT
basicaly the Losi has a very narrow "sweet spot" ie the gearing has to be perfect to make it "sing"!! Going by the Dyno figures I took a guess at gearing the Losi at 3.35, the performance was not too impressive,but a change as little as moving the FDR to 3.42 made a vast difference. My experience of the Losi is that you can keep on gearing it and it keeps getting faster. I can't find the sweet spot you talk about, I've just ignored that concept and kept gearing on up by temp. But, I use a heatsink and fan, maybe that moves the goalposts. *duck* |
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Post by lesbaldry on Feb 4, 2009 8:13:37 GMT
basicaly the Losi has a very narrow "sweet spot" ie the gearing has to be perfect to make it "sing"!! Going by the Dyno figures I took a guess at gearing the Losi at 3.35, the performance was not too impressive,but a change as little as moving the FDR to 3.42 made a vast difference. My experience of the Losi is that you can keep on gearing it and it keeps getting faster. I can't find the sweet spot you talk about, I've just ignored that concept and kept gearing on up by temp. But, I use a heatsink and fan, maybe that moves the goalposts. *duck* *duck* ;D ;D ;D ....that info is purely just my feeling about the motor Simon...I done the same as you by gearing it ,but ended up back to 3.42 the temp didnt chang much but the motor was visably quicker(good top speed with plenty of punch)....heat sinc?!?!? "phoooowie"...Purple car mate;).. ;D ;D ;D ....over gearing for me just seemed to loose the punch. Here's my prefered FDRs Trinity 10 deg advance 3.72 LRP " " " 3.66 Losi fixed 3.42 Non of my 17.5's have been "left for dead " down the strait or on the infied yet?? Simon just a thought...I understand you may of had some Lipo probs?? is it because your packs are poor you have to gear the motor that way to get the required speed or somthing to do with the speedo ?? |
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Post by Jazzler on Feb 4, 2009 15:26:54 GMT
Some very useful information here for me guys.. Thanks ;D
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Post by gwesty on Feb 4, 2009 19:01:57 GMT
hi , at the begining of 08 when we started to use bl we were all advancing our timing
on our motors but, when the air temps come up the motors start to fail ! when i say fail they just give up or have no resistance when turning the arm . due to heat ! normally when you up the timing on the motor it will run a lot hotter , more so that upping the fdr
hth glenn
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imagine trying to get that in a standard WCE cyclone without the upgraded pulleys! now that would almost be 1 : 1.
(yet to be tested and proven)
