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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 7:47:08 GMT
Post by Martin Young on Mar 31, 2009 7:47:08 GMT
I have a question relating to droop. (No smart comment please ) On Sunday I adjusted the droop and tried various setting to try and improve the car. I started with quite a lot of droop and then as the day went on i reduced it ending up with 5 front and 3 back. Now from my indoor background that is still a massive amount of droop what do other people at Bashley run?
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 8:29:05 GMT
Post by TryHard on Mar 31, 2009 8:29:05 GMT
Sounds about normal....
TBH, most cars hover around thoose settings, as they are a good starting point. Me personally, I'm on 5 & 4 at bashley with the 416, but have been running 6 / 5 indoors at the wars.
HiH Ed
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 8:41:01 GMT
Post by otr on Mar 31, 2009 8:41:01 GMT
I always get a bit confused about droop measurements. However going by the numbers on the droop gauge I have then I am on 5 front and 4 rear.
That is what I was running on Sunday Martin.
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 8:51:02 GMT
Post by Martin Young on Mar 31, 2009 8:51:02 GMT
OK Another question what is the correct way to measure droop? I have always used blocks and a gauge under the hub pin to measure but according to the Xray set up book that is described as downstop and droop is measured by lifting the chassis and measuring the difference between the ride height and the maximum chassis lift before the wheel leave the set up board. Does it make a difference? as the droop on he Xray method is just a result of the ride height and downstop settings.
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 9:00:26 GMT
Post by otr on Mar 31, 2009 9:00:26 GMT
Well rightly or wrongly all I do is rest the chassis on the droop gauge (the flat bit) and read off the number on the stepped ends where they touch the end of the wishbone.
I am sure others have different ways and no doubt my way is not the best way but it works for me and I can at least be consistent in the measuring.
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 9:01:53 GMT
Post by lesbaldry on Mar 31, 2009 9:01:53 GMT
5/4 for me at Bashley this time of year/grip levels but somtimes use 4/3 or even 2 on the rear in very low grip(depends on roll certres used)...but ride hight has a big influence on handling ie up lift mesurment! ...example 4 droop, 6mm ride hight should give 10 mm up lift "but !!" using the same droop (4)with different ride hight will alter the up lift and change the handling characteristics.
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 9:37:37 GMT
Post by yellowshark on Mar 31, 2009 9:37:37 GMT
OK Another question what is the correct way to measure droop? I have always used blocks and a gauge under the hub pin to measure but according to the Xray set up book that is described as downstop and droop is measured by lifting the chassis and measuring the difference between the ride height and the maximum chassis lift before the wheel leave the set up board. Does it make a difference? as the droop on he Xray method is just a result of the ride height and downstop settings. Yes it does make a difference Martin. What you are actually measuring with you droop guage is the downstop setting which controls droop. As you rightly say you measure actual droop by measuring uplift. Now in the UK we tend to interpose the 2 and use the downstop measurement when discussing droop, so your statement of figures like 5 & 6 for droop are OK as long as the other person is using the same nomenclature. In Holland when they talk about droop they are very definitely talking about the uplift measurement. Where to measure? You should not really be measuring under the C-hub pin screw. From your point of view as long as you always measure at the same point you have a constant when palying with your settings. BUT Xray team drivers measure under the A arm not the pin screw and importantly this is reflected on the base setup sheets you get from Xray or issued by team drivers on the forum. So if you setup your 008 using 6 & 5 from the setup sheet for rubber/asphalt measuring under the pin screw, you are not setting it as 6 &5. Importantly, becuase of this, most Xray drivers do not measure under the pin scew so if you have a conversation on a forum on this basis, you are not comparing apples with apples - which is why personally I think the Dutch have got it right - no room for error or misunderstand if you talk about droop as being uplift. Any doubts pop over on Sunday and I will show you. Pete Oh talking in downstop settings ;D we use 6 front and 5.5 rear for Bashley. Did use 5 rear for sometime and then changed - but it all depends on your other settings!!
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 9:56:47 GMT
Post by yellowshark on Mar 31, 2009 9:56:47 GMT
Oh and get your heads around this one. I was talking to a guy at Aldershot and he reckoned the way to do it was to set maxium droop/uplift at both ends and control weight transfer via the springs??? Sure makes a quick setup change a more lengthy process and I question fineness of adjustment; but I have never tried it.
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 10:04:58 GMT
Post by otr on Mar 31, 2009 10:04:58 GMT
I was told to set "droop" accurately you should only do it with the shocks disconnected ?.
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 10:14:43 GMT
Post by lesbaldry on Mar 31, 2009 10:14:43 GMT
Oh and get your heads around this one. I was talking to a guy at Aldershot and he reckoned the way to do it was to set maxium droop/uplift at both ends and control weight transfer via the springs??? Sure makes a quick setup change a more lengthy process and I question fineness of adjustment; but I have never tried it. What was he runing Pete an off road buggy ;D..I would also question his handling on fast flowing high grip tracks...let alone carpet
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 10:19:03 GMT
Post by lesbaldry on Mar 31, 2009 10:19:03 GMT
I was told to set "droop" accurately you should only do it with the shocks disconnected ?. And roll bars too and make sure the shock mounts can fully extend and slightly past the wish bone mount (shock travel) if using more than normal droop (lower number) If the droop alters one side after fitting the roll bars drop links (shocks still off) your roll bar is tweaked.
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 10:23:03 GMT
Post by Martin Young on Mar 31, 2009 10:23:03 GMT
Oh and get your heads around this one. I was talking to a guy at Aldershot and he reckoned the way to do it was to set maxium droop/uplift at both ends and control weight transfer via the springs??? Sure makes a quick setup change a more lengthy process and I question fineness of adjustment; but I have never tried it. Not sure about that one. I usually run far more droop on my sons cars as it makes the car more predictable and easier to drive. Less droop from my experiences often results in a quick and pointy car, but up until late last year only ran on a nice flat indoor track none of these bumps to unsettle the car. I agree with you Ian that the shocks should be removed, when i first started indoors with a touring car I ran a TC3 which always pulled to one side this after a few weeks of painful crashes was found to be the droop but more so due to me not removing the shocks before checking.
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 10:53:32 GMT
Post by Martin Young on Mar 31, 2009 10:53:32 GMT
If the droop alters one side after fitting the roll bars drop links (shocks still off) your roll bar is tweaked. True not thought about that. More things to check
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 12:11:01 GMT
Post by yellowshark on Mar 31, 2009 12:11:01 GMT
I usually run far more droop on my sons cars as it makes the car more predictable and easier to drive. . Another thing you can do for you son Martin is to lean your shocks over more, ie move the top fixing point more towards the centreline of the car. This will give and easy, progressive less reponsive feel. It will though change your weight transfer characteristics so you might want to compensate with a bit of change to your droop ;D, depending on the result of course.
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 12:17:05 GMT
Post by yellowshark on Mar 31, 2009 12:17:05 GMT
If the droop alters one side after fitting the roll bars drop links (shocks still off) your roll bar is tweaked. True not thought about that. More things to check Martin not sure if Les' point negates mine (dont think so) but the final check I do before using the tweak station is to check roll bar tweak by sliding the ride height gague under the chassis (dead centre rear and then front) and making sure that the 2 relevant wheels leave the ground at the same time. I must confess there have been times when there has been a very small difference which I have just left and not tried to fix because of running out of time and needing to skim the engines (oh don't have to do that now ;D)
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 18:00:07 GMT
Post by jamietraylor on Mar 31, 2009 18:00:07 GMT
I was running 5/4 on sunday at bashley and run 6/5 on wednesdays and chippenham
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 18:11:11 GMT
Post by TryHard on Mar 31, 2009 18:11:11 GMT
I would very much doubt using that as a measn of controlling the weight transfer is very effective... after all, even in full scale, they use bump stops to limit travel where required, which is what we are effectively doing with the downstop settings (and how it used to be controlled before droop screws ) As for the setting of it... the most accurate method is to take the wheels and tyres of the car, and then measure to the top of the axles... combine that with the radius of your tyres, and you can compensate for differences in tyre diameter, as well as ride-height, when setting droop. Thats how the US guys compensate for the reduction in diameter of the foams. I've personally never bothered with the theory of doing it with tyres on the car, as quite simply, there can be a big variation in diameter between sets, and your relying on the accuracy of your eyes... However, the quickest mehtod is too use a gauge. As long as YOU measure it off the same spot when setting it, it really doesn't matter where it's measured... although as pete says, you do need to be aware of how it's measured, when transfering other drivers setups. As for setting it, well, I've covered this before on my site... www.thard.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=187 that works exactly the same on any other car too. All that comes from David Juns advice on setting droop... www.thard.co.uk/415/tips/DavidJundroopmethod.docHiH Ed
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 19:13:44 GMT
Post by www.YDMRCC.com on Mar 31, 2009 19:13:44 GMT
Ian. Setting droop with shocks detached? Can that be right Trev
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 19:39:48 GMT
Post by jamietraylor on Mar 31, 2009 19:39:48 GMT
I set my droop with shocks detached to prevent snagging. Is this wrong?
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 20:14:17 GMT
Post by yellowshark on Mar 31, 2009 20:14:17 GMT
Ian. Setting droop with shocks detached? Can that be right Trev Absolutely + sway bars detached
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 21:08:53 GMT
Post by www.YDMRCC.com on Mar 31, 2009 21:08:53 GMT
Droop with shocks detached but uplift of chassis with them attached, think that's correct. Otherwise it might answer a lot of questions ;D
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 22:05:29 GMT
Post by issac on Mar 31, 2009 22:05:29 GMT
yep thats correct
check droop with shocks and any roll bars detached once the droop setting is ok make sure the shock extends past the ball/screw etc or the shock won't allow the droop to be reached
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Droop
Mar 31, 2009 22:38:15 GMT
Post by lesbaldry on Mar 31, 2009 22:38:15 GMT
Droop with shocks detached but uplift of chassis with them attached, think that's correct. Otherwise it might answer a lot of questions ;D Spot on Trev,droop is always set with shocks and roll bars detached,its very important to have the shock shaft lengths/mountings points just a fraction longer than the lowest droop you will ever use,if they are shorter they will hold the wish bone arm up not allowing it to drop to your set droop This is how I set my shock lenghts,..set droop very accurately to the lowest you would ever use (4 front 3 rear?)and adjust one shock length to fit wishbone with out the droop altering,remove shock, unscrew lower shock mount a further1/2 turn to give the shock slightly more length then carefully measure fully extended shock length (vernier between shock body and lower shock mount works well) set other shock to exactly!! the same length,repeat at other end of car..done this way you will always have enough shock shaft travel for your lowest droop setting and the shock pistons will be sitting at the same hight per side when weighted giving equal damping. If your car has the correct droop,springs,ride hight and up lift combination the spring should just be slightly loose or very nearly fully extended/relaxed between the lower cup mount and adjuster ring when the wheels are hanging free...if the spring is still under a fair bit of compression there is something very wrong! Strangely enough on most road cars the suspension down travel "droop" is limited and stopped by the shock length and the bump stop stops the chassis grounding out
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Droop
Apr 10, 2009 9:55:03 GMT
Post by yellowshark on Apr 10, 2009 9:55:03 GMT
I always knew this, filed at the back of the mind, but had never worried about it or measured it, but hey that is what Bank holidays are for Take your Muchmore small tyre warmers and fit them over your Take-Off tyres, a nice snug fit. Fit them over your Sorex tyres and they don't. The Sorex tyres are bigger. So set your car up with Sorex tyres and put a set of Take-Offs on and your ride height and uplift (real droop) will reduce by 0.5mm. IE if you change manufacturers during a race meeting, beware
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