|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Jun 4, 2009 10:06:48 GMT
Something I have always found amusing is the way we are all so so careful with getting adjustments spot on,droop,ride hight etc have to be matched to our style and track to the nearest 0.2mm BUT!!!...We ponder for hours with setup gauges checking our camber and toe to the best we can,in our minds 0.5 of a degree more or less can make us "that" bit faster  .....Has any one ever tried to measure how much slop we have in our hub bearings (even from new)....at least 0.5 deg  ;D....hmmmmm I wonder how many of us have adjusted our camber/toe on our very expensive set up plates only to find the camber has changed when the cars loaded with wheels/ cells fitted and checked with a cheap plastic camber gauge! |
|
|
|
Post by oldtimeracer on Jun 4, 2009 10:11:08 GMT
Gave up with the smart set up gauges and only ever use a plastic cheap camber gauge now.
As you get older most things start to get a bit sloppier...... ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Jun 4, 2009 10:24:31 GMT
Gave up with the smart set up gauges and only ever use a plastic cheap camber gauge now. As you get older most things start to get a bit sloppier...... ;D ....Depends apon your ( ) drive Ian  Seiously though....how should we run our cars?as they come off the expensive set up gauges??..or as we see/measure them on the pit table ready to race?? |
|
|
|
Post by oldtimeracer on Jun 4, 2009 10:42:32 GMT
When I do a rebuild I use the set up gauges to set the car up but I have found that when at the race meeting it is easier to set up the car using the plastic gauges.
I have found a difference in setting up the camber with set up gauges and when the car is sat on the table using the plastic one. In theory they should both give the same result as all the weight is taking on the axles in both cases whether you have wheels fitted or not.
It is just easier for me to do it track side with the cheapo plastic gauge.
I find the smart set up gauge set better for checking toe in though.
Maybe we try to over complicate things because we can?
|
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Jun 4, 2009 11:03:47 GMT
Maybe we try to over complicate things because we can? May be half the fun too Ian "something to do" gets us away from the missus,any chance to play in the garage We allways fiddle track side with half a turn here half a turn there,to me this just makes all those 18 deg/22deg lock adusments a total wast of time lol...all I have ever used is a vernier,two straight edges(steel rules) a flat surface and droop ride hight gauges. |
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Jun 4, 2009 11:31:29 GMT
Lol interesting point Les although on this one I think I tend to go with Ian, nit that I know it just seems logical.
BUT my camber settings are based on various trials and the end result that was best. So it doesn't matter if the measuremnt with wheels on is different to the setup station - the setup station is mirroring the reality when the car is racing.
Now I have recently just invested in a cheapo guage - been waiting ages for them to come back in stock. And there is a 1/2 degree difference between the setup station and the cheapo guage, which I had put down to you get what you pay for, although your proposal may well be the cause, I hadn't thought of that.
But it doesn't matter becuase I have set the cheapo guage to reflect the setting when it comes of the station and so at anytime during a meeting now I can use the cheapo guage to check for any movenement rather than setting up the setup station.
|
|
|
|
Post by Reuben on Jun 4, 2009 11:41:42 GMT
I do my toe-out usually by eye.
But I never do it with normal tyres on, I use my "setup wheels".
With these on you get a sharp edge to measure camber against, toe-out is then done by eye.
Once at the track, if I need to check my camber ill use the guage against the tyre. And as long as it isn't massively out and as long as its equal left to right then its ok!
|
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Jun 4, 2009 11:53:05 GMT
- the setup station is mirroring the reality when the car is racing. A serious question Pete.....how does the set up gauge mirror the car when racing when the car is static? To me when the car is driven forward under load any slop will taken up by the lateral and foward drive/ load.. ie the driven wheels under load will always try to naturaly toe in so static Parallel front toe becomes 0.5 deg neg (toe in) considering there is 0.5 deg slop in the brgs/ball ends also the off and on power turning force (lateral) will alter the static camber setting which will also effect the toe angle and toe out in turns...."bugger"I think ill stick to feel/eye and a plastic gauge ;D....Ah ha,sussed it,thats why a new cars first run feels good ;D ;Dlol |
|
|
|
Post by Reuben on Jun 4, 2009 12:04:43 GMT
lol. When you brake? do the wheels then slopp the other way??? or when you corner do they give a little? as 0.5 each way is going to be a 1 degree total movement?
Over complications!
|
|
|
|
Post by oldtimeracer on Jun 4, 2009 12:20:41 GMT
Now Les you are changing the subject but I agree whole heartedly. A new car always seems faster and better. After a while when it all settles down it never seems to be quite as good.
Now is this a case of things wearing in (or out!) and should we be spending more time shimming etc to get back that new car feel?
As far as set up gauges are concerened I don't think you should take too much notice. The car when moving chages things dramatically I am sure. Do you take into account the fact we have chassis that are designed to flex? does that not change all our settings? wheels as well, hard cornering they must distort to some degree? should you take into account suspension defections?
Set up gauges can only ever give you a base line that is consistent surely?
After that just drive the bl**y thing!
|
|
Darren
Hitting the Tyre
It's better to crash and burn than to fade away
Posts: 88
|
Post by Darren on Jun 4, 2009 12:23:09 GMT
Seiously though....how should we run our cars?as they come off the expensive set up gauges??..or as we see/measure them on the pit table ready to race?? Im no worlds driver, but at the KO last year the Xray team drivers were pitting next to us and i was having problems with my car. So i went over and asked for some advise's, One of the drivers(mod class)got my car and checked it over, then set to changing some settings on it. Watching him he set the car up as if it was on the track... Batteries in, shocks on the car and measured droop with shocks on and from the bottom of the chassis rather than using the hudy blocks. When i asked why he did it this his reply was cause the car sit's on the track this way so why taken stuff off to set it up. After watching him i set my car up this way to this day |
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Jun 4, 2009 12:48:36 GMT
- the setup station is mirroring the reality when the car is racing. A serious question Pete.....how does the set up gauge mirror the car when racing when the car is static? OK Les this is the principle. I use the setup station to set the camber to -1.5. Then I run the car. Then I use the setup station to set the camber to -2.0; run the car. Ditto setting the camber to -2.5. What the reality of the actual settings are is sort of irrelevant; what I am assuming though is that the .5 degree change on the setup station is accurate, or better put, repeatable. IE the next time I set it to -1.5 it will be the same reality as it was the previous time. Then I select the setup with the best performance - and of course that is not black and white because of tyres and changing track temps but we have devleoped techniques to generally make that acceptable. So if we are getting the best performance with the station set to -2.0, that's it. That is what the car is telling us and as long as the setup station is accurate enough to be repeatable, then setting at -2.0 every time will work, irrespective of whether that -2.0 in reality is -1.75 or -3.0. Setting the cheapo guage is then just a question of placing against one of the wheels (actually I check it against the other 3) and adjusting it so it is "measuring" the angle that came off the setup station, or if you like, off the race track. Now your point about tyres and slop is still relevant. At home I always use a new set of wheels with the same tyre, irrespective of the tyre I will be running - not as rich as Reubs to be able to afford those flashy setup wheels - as for slop, no idea how to cater for that ;D IE the point to me is that if you have setting derived as per the above approach, over time your slop will increase, which I assume means the reality of your standard setting will change, if your setup -2.0 did in relaity equal -2.0, in the future it will equal something different to -2.0, now whether that is -2.0015 or -2.9 I have no idea  HTH |
|
|
|
Post by TryHard on Jun 4, 2009 12:55:22 GMT
Set up gauges can only ever give you a base line that is consistent surely? Bingo! As any engineer will tell you, you absolutely need a consistent baseline to work from... simple. Does it really matter how you set it? not really, as long as you do it the same way time and time again. As for taking up the slop, thats why I push down on the car when it's on the gauges, takes up any slack. Change a setting, push down, and re-check.  |
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Jun 4, 2009 12:57:08 GMT
After that just drive the bl**y thing! Yep Ian I just tought it would make an interesting debate ;D....Im told that if the car has zero slop/play it will feel twitchy....Hmmm Ive built a few and have yet to find one with out any  |
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Jun 4, 2009 13:04:18 GMT
As far as set up gauges are concerened I don't think you should take too much notice. The car when moving chages things dramatically I am sure. Do you take into account the fact we have chassis that are designed to flex? does that not change all our settings? wheels as well, hard cornering they must distort to some degree? should you take into account suspension defections? Set up gauges can only ever give you a base line that is consistent surely? quote] Ian I think you are missing the point in the 1st para but have redeemed yourself in the 2nd para ;D If you drove the same line at the same speed lap after lap the car would react the same way consistently - yes I know if you did 50 laps the tyres would start to go but don't let's get bogged down. During your "consistent" lapping the car will flex. Now you have no way of measuring that without a computer model. But the way it reacts will be determined by the way you have set it up - which you can measure. As you say in your 2nd para, setup is all about creating a consistent baseline. And we all know that even a minor change can create quite a significant difference. It doesn't guarantee a great handling car every weekend but it sure does increase the chances. |
|
|
|
Post by oldtimeracer on Jun 4, 2009 13:18:45 GMT
Yes but Ed, you are running a TAMIYA so you have to adjust for slop. ;D ;D
but you are of course right. setting up every time with the same base parameter is the only way to sure of changes being effective.
I have been told before that a car with no slop can be a bit twitchy.
|
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Jun 4, 2009 13:27:38 GMT
Blimey that was a load of sience chaps,I was curious of who uses what and how....as I said I have never used one to any great lenght..due to my veiws on slop....Still, if you enjoy fideling "good"(personal peice of mind)...Im with Ian though for the sake of £5/6 for a set of hub brgs and some shimming once a month I prefer to keep my cars as tight and slop free as poss.
|
|
|
|
Post by Simon Crabb on Jun 4, 2009 14:27:52 GMT
Interestingly, last night, with the brand new car, I re-adjusted camber after every run.
Yes, there is some, 'tolerance' movement, even on a new car, but I think the plastic wheels aren't particularly straight, so you do the adjustment, and rotate the wheel and it will be different?
Especially on the old battered wheels I insist on using!
I have to say though, the new car was a bit twitchy, and not that easy to drive, it would rapidly move offline with small steering inputs. Going to try and calm it down a bit!
|
|
|
|
Post by oldtimeracer on Jun 4, 2009 16:15:42 GMT
Well Simon it is a Tamiya. You will have to get used to the slop.
|
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Jun 4, 2009 16:31:40 GMT
Interestingly, last night, with the brand new car, I re-adjusted camber after every run. Yes, there is some, 'tolerance' movement, even on a new car, but I think the plastic wheels aren't particularly straight, so you do the adjustment, and rotate the wheel and it will be different? Especially on the old battered wheels I insist on using! Dont think so Simon. If I set my camber on the setup station and then use the cheapo guage - it sits evenly against all 4 wheels which suggest sufficent uniformity |
|
|
|
Post by mattsedgley on Jun 4, 2009 17:08:29 GMT
Interestingly, last night, with the brand new car, I re-adjusted camber after every run. Yes, there is some, 'tolerance' movement, even on a new car, but I think the plastic wheels aren't particularly straight, so you do the adjustment, and rotate the wheel and it will be different? Especially on the old battered wheels I insist on using! Dont think so Simon. If I set my camber on the setup station and then use the cheapo guage - it sits evenly against all 4 wheels which suggest sufficent uniformity I agree with Simon here, and disagree with you pete, quite often there can be a wheel that's not running true anymore, it's one of those things I suppose.. I always rotate the wheel three times unless i know they are brand new.... Toe is the one I find really hard to set.. it's the most difficult to set in my eyes! Matt  |
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Jun 4, 2009 22:59:31 GMT
Ive yet to find an absolutely true wheel even out of the packet,I dont expect the hub hex's run that true either.....At track side I take a measurement every quarter turn and adjust to the average.
Track side quick front toe check Matt,run the car and "true" the steering trim,remove the body,leave the car and trany turned on (to keep the steering still),put a pair of steel rulers edge on against the wheels pointing out of the front of the car while viewing from above, any toe will be exaggerated by the rulers...."crabing" unequal sided rear toe can also be checked "crudely" this way too.
|
|
|
|
Post by mattsedgley on Jun 4, 2009 23:09:55 GMT
ahh good idea!
cheers mate!
|
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Jun 5, 2009 6:33:46 GMT
Alternatively it put it on your set station to remove the variable of dodgy wheels and check your castor gain and bump steer at the same time. So much easier ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Jun 5, 2009 6:56:16 GMT
Alternatively it put it on your set station to remove the variable of dodgy wheels and check your castor gain and bump steer at the same time. So much easier ;D Nah....drive it and and adjust it to track conditions on the day,you will probably have to any way even after hours on the set up station  ;Dlol This is something I have not seen for a while,A tweak bar!any one used or have one....its a square bar that runs centrally under the chassis,the other end is a pivoted "T" bar of the same material with a spirit level ,the wheels are placed on the pivoted "T" and the suspension is pressed/worked,any tight spot/tweak is shown by the spirit level...crude but effective. |
|
|
|
Post by oldtimeracer on Jun 5, 2009 7:20:27 GMT
Oh I have one of those Laser tweak gauges. Same principle but there is a Laser in one end that shines on a scale at the other. Super accurate so they say. I hardly ever use it though. Prefer the old tried and tested allen key under the centre of the car and lift!
|
|
|
|
Post by TryHard on Jun 5, 2009 7:39:18 GMT
I have a tweak bar in my box, and if anything, it's one of my most used tools.
Really don't like the chassis lifting method, too many variables going on again (airgap in tyres, wonky wheels, slop in hubs, slopey table etc) that can affect it... IMO.
As long as the tweak station is setup right, you can get easily repeatable results, pretty darn quick.
|
|
|
|
Post by Simon Crabb on Jun 5, 2009 8:24:15 GMT
yep I have a laser tweak bar and use it often.
Took me ages to figure out how but now I get it!
It's interesting though with a careful setup and measured shock collars etc that often it's perfect first time. So certainly not essential.
|
|
|
|
Post by TryHard on Jun 5, 2009 8:41:46 GMT
Actually, I wouldn't say that... as I find essential to check the tweak... if it measures perfect first time, great, at least you've checked it |
|
|
|
Post by Simon Crabb on Jun 5, 2009 9:20:12 GMT
What I'm saying Ed, I think you can remove tweak by 'normal' sorts of checks:
ie chassis on flat board, refit top deck, measure and adjust shocks, check roll bars side to side
And the tweak station just confirms that you've done the job okay. It gives a good peace of mind that you've not made any errors I guess.
|
|
.....Has any one ever tried to measure how much slop we have in our hub bearings (even from new)....at least 0.5 deg 
;D....hmmmmm
;Dlol