Racing Weds 24th

[Simon Crabb]

Who's running the meeting on Wednesday?

I'll be down at the track early, so happy to set up the generator etc.

Gonna try 13.5, got to sort out the gear ratio for the STCC meet. I'm guessing 4.x?

[Antz]

me and dad will b down on weds and have some fun on the track ;D

[Reuben]

well it will be me running wednesday! It might be a late start because I wont get there till 6.30ish, so if all drivers can get ready to book in as soon as I arrive we will hopefully get going by 6.45-7.00.

We will also try to get as much in before it gets dark! 4/5 rounds.

Dont know what I will be running yet. 17.5 is in the car, but I also need to practice 13.5 for STCC! So I may join you Simon (I could tell you what a good ratio is, but your running that WAVE! so I have no idea)

[Simon Crabb]

Is a 13.5 about +1 more than a 17.5?

[Simon Crabb]

Okay, Reubes is running it, so if we racers can get everything set up for when he arrives job's a good un!

[Reuben]

if you guys can get it all setup! and book is as soon as I am there... ill promise a ship-shape meeting!

Yes Simon about 1 - 1.5 more.

well Ive made up my mind! SEE YOU IN PRO STOCK SIMON!

[lesbaldry]

Jun 22, 2009 20:38:07 GMT Reuben said:

Yes Simon about 1 - 1.5 more.

?...depends apon your speedo,profile and motor...clue:stock spec on profie 7 and speed passion on sunday was ran at 6.28,,thats 3 above an ISTC and 17.5 Nosram.....try 5.0 plus and temp it Simon after a 2min run??..good luck and stay safe!....I think you will find Martin Young is up in the 6's too with his 3rd gen speedo.

[Simon Crabb]

Thanks guys. Yeah, I was thinking starting around 5 and seeing where I ended up with it. Gear ratios are a very personal thing I think, I've always ended up with ratios quite different to others.

[yellowshark]

Jun 22, 2009 21:11:17 GMT @lesbaldry said:

Jun 22, 2009 20:38:07 GMT Reuben said:

Yes Simon about 1 - 1.5 more.

?...depends apon your speedo,profile and motor...clue:stock spec on profie 7 and speed passion on sunday was ran at 6.28,,thats 3 above an ISTC and 17.5 Nosram.....try 5.0 plus and temp it Simon after a 2min run??..good luck and stay safe!....I think you will find Martin Young is up in the 6's too with his 3rd gen speedo.

Things are getting interesting Adam was running his Nosram 10.5 with a stack of timing and an FDR of 6 on Sunday. No torque mind but with an FDR that low doees that really matter.

[mattsedgley]

Adam Smith doesn't have a Gen3 speedo at present does he?

[Martin S]

Jun 23, 2009 11:53:48 GMT @mattsedgley said:

Adam Smith doesn't have a Gen3 speedo at present does he?

No I don't. Its a Speedpassion V1.1 with the timing on full.

Adam

[TryHard]

With the Wave, I'm on 4.86 round bashley on 10.5....

And I know that at Halifax at the weekend, the winning car was using a stock spec, with profile 7, geared at...4.8. I only geared up to 4.55 there, as I was feeling it going soft towards the end of the run in the heat.
I also know there wasn't a huge split between those running standard (TC Spec) and SPX's etc. 4.3ish vs 4.8ish

Food for thought....

[Robin Howett]

What was the 10.5 motor of choice Ed? or was it a mixture?

[Simon Crabb]

I think Ed said it was a mixture of Nosram & Novak that were most popular...

[TryHard]

From the chart in front of me, 5 were Novaks, 4 were Nosrams/LRP's (including the top two), and one was GM
Bear in mind they had to be from the BRCA list... so neither the Losi or Duo is legal.

Regards
Ed

[Simon Crabb]

Here's the link to the 10.5 list

www.brca.org/BRCA/elecboard/news/Brushless%20Spec.%20Motors%20(10.5T).pdf

I love that the Team Wave has the label on upside down compared to the rest ;-)

[yellowshark]

I'm not sure(becuase I am thick on this subject ;D) that Gen2/3 comes into it Matt (or is that gen 1/2 anyway?). Adam was using the same engine as moi (Nosram evo) and had gone in an entirely different direction to me (and Ed and Dan) and the end result didn't look any different to me. ). It did in Adams view because he had tried gearing around the 5.0 mark and couldn't get the performance until he whacked on speedo and engine timing and geared right down to compensate . But his raw speed compared to Craig looked the same to me. It would be interesting to know what Sam was geared at?

So does it in reality make any difference what you do; high gearing and low timing to deliver the torque to drive the gearing; or low gearing and loads of timing to give you the revs to match the low gearing?

On a statistical sample of 2 cars, no.

[mattsedgley]

You're sample is flawed - there are far to many variables between the two.. using Adam and Sam as a comparison is probably better, they both have Mi4's one Gen3 one Gen2 - however same driver, same car, same setup, same motor, same cells, would me a better test obviously - but we all know thats 99% imposible for us to recreate (as we're mortals.. not like the top end of the sport)

(we can call it Gen three because Gen1 would be Novak GTB territory, very little adjustment in reality, Gen2 sphere, ISTC, Speed Passion 1.1 a fair amount of programming, Gen 3 being dynamic or on the fly timing advance such as the SP2.2 GM 120, Nosram Stock Spec and the LRP Equiv')

Now the Pearl is an interesting one - I drove a Pearl before I'd even seen a Stock Spec, I've also got deep down into the instruction manual and the programmable settings of it. The XPS3 that they talk about in the advertising, and in the instruction manual is not a dynamic timing advance like on any of the gen3 ESC's for want of a better word it's just more punch.. a more aggressive level of punch that seen on the likes of the ISTC(gen2) but it's certainly not Dynamic like a Gen3, it's almost a gen 2.5

Scot Hauser - I think we'll all agree is not a slow driver, he's changed away from his two Pearls and bought two stock specs.

Now it does throw up a question;
Is it better to have a higher specification ESC like the Pearl (it's something like 700A/phase in power delivery) or is it better to have a ESC that can deliver no more power than the old ISTC/sphere(400A/phase) but can deliver it in a more dynamic way?

Ian Newton Suggest he'd not have a stock spec because his motors were fast enough allready and that he didn't need the timing advance, yet at the same time I'm sure he would agree that it was frustrating for him at Yateley that the timing advance ESCs like mine were giving drivers and advantage, More brakes, more top end, equal if not more punch out of corners..

The GM120 has a "black box' recorder - Martin Young Suggested the maximum amp draw at any one time was 100amps with 13.5 - 10.5? could perhaps peak at maybe 150A, or 200A?

If any of this information helps us understand what we need to gear our motors to is another matter, I'm sure within 12 months the next batch of motors through will change all of this once again.

It's all good fun this set up lark isn't it!

[yellowshark]

Interesting stuff Matt, especially the bit about delving deep into the manual - that would be the sheet of paper the size of a ciggie packet then , with one line of settings on timing advance and no explantation of that line at all, or the line on throttle profile;D

No doubt you have downloaded something from the Web that you going to mention then

[TryHard]

Another interesting point from the weekend....

1st place used a Stock spec (as previously mentioned), however second (who was also 2nd overall) and 4th on the grid were using TC specs....

And in the top ten also were two SXX's...

It's not all as clear cut as it would seem

[Antz]

gr8 race meet tonight realy enjoyed racing against terry and deano gd fun ;D

[Dean]

Tonight was really fun really enjoyed it got a new PB looking for for next time ;D trying to keep up with terry was quite a challenge

[mattsedgley]

Great racing tonight! had loads of fun!

Jun 24, 2009 17:55:51 GMT yellowshark said:

Interesting stuff Matt, especially the bit about delving deep into the manual - that would be the sheet of paper the size of a ciggie packet then , with one line of settings on timing advance and no explantation of that line at all, or the line on throttle profile;D

No doubt you have downloaded something from the Web that you going to mention then

Taken from the Pearl manual:

XPS.3 Power Profiles: results in more power and better driveability. Depending on the status of the car (start,
acceleration, full speed) the software calculates the perfect motor management by adjusting current limiter, motor
timing, throttle curve and more! Higher value means more overall power and aggressive response.

Taken from the stock spec manual

ADPC™ Brushless - Power Profiles: results in more power and better driveability.Depending on the status of the car (start, acceleration, full speed) the software calculates the perfect motor management. Higher value means more overall power and aggressive response.

Interestingly the they both have the same caution on them -

Caution: Do not advance mechanical timing on the motor when using high ADPC profiles

(When I blew up my LRP 13.5 I had the timing all the way round - as far advanced as the plate would allow and a little bit more - Do we assume your timing for your two blown motors was similar?)

I'm no instant expert, I'm not quoting other comments.. it's all from the information available on the Nosram/LRP websites..

The flyers for the pearl state the following:

Features:
-  Full contact cooling – revolutionary full contact cooling for lowest running temperature.
-  New XPS.3 software – 10 power profiles for finest adjustments to all classes and motors. Including team profiles.
-  All new brake design – stronger push- brake and 10 autobrake settings for perfect adjustment
-  Extra small 30.5x34.0x21.0mm
-  Smart- Temp- Read- Out- System 2
-  Sensored technology
-  LiPo + 4, 5 and 6 cell optimized
-  Smart- cell system Forward/ brake
-  3.3mm² power wire
-  3- way protection- system
-  B.E.C. 6.0V/3.0A
-  Brushless: over 2.5 turns
-  Plugged fan

Where as the Spec Racing is listed as;

4 “SpecRacing” stock profiles
4 modified profiles
automatic brushless +brushed adaptation
Forward/ brake control for maximum performance
3- way protection system
Smart- temp- readout- system
enhanced digital with 4 adjustable modes
Launch control
large power capacitor
freeze drive design
Sensored technology
4, 5 and 6 cell optimized
2.6mm2 power wire


However the really interesting part is this;

The Matrix Evolution Spec Racing features new hardware and new special software with 4 “Spec Racing” stock profiles to extract maximum performance out of your spec racing motor. Compared to ordinary brushless modified speed controls, the Matrix Evolution “Spec Racing” gives significantly higher RPM and torque from any brushless stock motor, regardless of the winding

So on comparison of the widely available information; published almost identically via LRP and Nosram - they clearly state the Spec racing speed controller to be better at stock winds. 9.5,10.5,13.5,17.5 maybe even 21.5!

IF you were to look really indepth at the Pearl, you may find this document relevant and of interest

[a href="http://www.lrp.cc/en/service/lrp-column/lrp-column-detail/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=3733&tx_ttnews[backPid]=142&cHash=866d5af5ef"]http://www.lrp.cc/en/service/lrp-column/lrp-column-detail/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=3733&tx_ttnews[backPid]=142&cHash=866d5af5ef[/a]

Published in April of this year, it clearly details how the company went about designing a new Speed controller from the ground up, the problems they faced, and the short time frame for their R+D team to work in.

As we mentioned previously - it's difficult to compare speed controllers unless you personally are back to backing them, bench testing is another matter.

However it shouldn't be ignored that at the 1/12th worlds an old style TC made 8th only three SXXs above it - at this level we're talking 100th's maybe even 1000th's of seconds difference between them.. on the track in reality..
[a href="http://www.lrp.cc/en/news/news/race-news/race-news/?tx_ttnews[pointer]=3&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=3570&tx_ttnews[backPid]=113&cHash=bd2fd43004"]http://www.lrp.cc/en/news/news/race-news/race-news/?tx_ttnews[pointer]=3&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=3570&tx_ttnews[backPid]=113&cHash=bd2fd43004[/a]

the 1/10th worlds saw the SXX do well with 4.0T and 4.5T motors...
[a href="http://www.lrp.cc/en/news/news/race-news/race-news/?tx_ttnews[pointer]=3&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=3581&tx_ttnews[backPid]=113&cHash=eaf6278b1b"]http://www.lrp.cc/en/news/news/race-news/race-news/?tx_ttnews[pointer]=3&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=3581&tx_ttnews[backPid]=113&cHash=eaf6278b1b[/a]

Four months Later in February at the Euros No SXX's or Pearls appear to have made the top 10 in either format 1/12th or 1/10th TC - Drivers have returned to using the old Sphere TC and the LRP spec racing equivalent.

Juho Levänen is a fine example of someone who ran the new speedo at the worlds and then swapped back to the Sphere TC just four months later...

[a href="http://www.lrp.cc/en/news/news/race-news/race-news/?tx_ttnews[pointer]=2&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=3684&tx_ttnews[backPid]=113&cHash=d662de52d5"]http://www.lrp.cc/en/news/news/race-news/race-news/?tx_ttnews[pointer]=2&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=3684&tx_ttnews[backPid]=113&cHash=d662de52d5[/a]


Devling deep into the available information is relative - dependant on how much information you know is out there Pete. Either way - I'm no expert on the feild, I've just sat quietly and digested all the information that I have available.

Wether any of it makes a difference on a bumpy little Bashley remains to be seen, the fact that your the only team to be using a Pearl outdoors at Bashley and the rest of the racing fraternity who have taken to updating their speed controls this year, as you did, have all chosen a timing advance model over a non timing advance must show a trend for club racers and the winds that we use regularly..

Aside from a few Mods at Calshot who didn't like their own money or chassis plates, we rarely see anything lower in windings than a 10.5 do we??

I suppose it's easy for any of us to take information from wherever on the internet regurgitate it as our own and speak like we know best, doing it on the track, thats the hard part.

[lesbaldry]

Just my short Penney's worth ;D.....The so called 3rd gen esc's all deliver their power (advance/punch) in different ways,ie the same motor ran with two different 3rd gen speedos will probably end up with totally different FDR's for similar performance and safe temp.

The old school thinking of smaller pinion (higher ratio) to cure a hot motor problem does not always work,for this reason...higher rpm=more timing advance=more heat (depending upon profile and ESC)...IMOH finding your motors sweet spot per track with these ESC's is harder....asking a mates advice for a fdr who is using the same motor but different ESC can be misleading and lead to a "popped" motor....we were all scratching our heads at Yateley remember ;D lol

This is the wrong thread for this ;D...who started it "what ever"

[Reuben]

Yeh, some good information/discussion here. Can we have that stripped out and moved to a seperate thread....

Back to topic.

Thanks to all those who raced. I had a great time.

As Les said about FDR's, its very difficult to find the FDR's for these new speedo's, could even just be a tooth on the pinion or spur that could hit that extremely narrow window. Ill expand in the new thread on my short experience with these esc's and these little cars

[lesbaldry]

No doubt an experts opinion for more info on ESC's along with set up/handling advice can be found on Race chat at a later date,probably copy quoted from another "in house" helpfull private source for their own self importance

[Robin Howett]

Top nights racing last night, its been a while and i'd forgotton how much fun grid starts are every run.
And the track looks ace after all the track work, well done everyone.

[Simon Crabb]

Sure was a great night, I loved the TC racing, well the first couple of runs, until my diff decided to stop allowing me to go around corners!

And the buggies were ace fun, roundy roundy jumpy jumpy! Terry's ramp is awesome, the curve makes it look like it will send you too high, but it was perfect!

Same on Sunday please, excellent TC racing, and off-road fun in the break!

[mattsedgley]

Agreed all of last night was brilliant... except for the grass cutting before TC racing! where's all the grip gone???

[Simon Crabb]

Oh I just *knew* someone had to moan about grass cutting and getting dust on the precious track!

The track changes week to week, it always has done, it always will do.

But during the meeting it's the same for everyone, so it really doesn't matter.

Sigh.