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Post by lesbaldry on Feb 4, 2010 7:56:53 GMT
Matt I presume you mean sealed can brushed motor
also the speedo price limit is a bit low,how about £50?
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Post by mattsedgley on Feb 4, 2010 13:40:20 GMT
Yes, it'll be a sealed Silver can motor, turn to be decided when you guys get a dry days testing!!
With regard to the speed controller, the committee discussed the price limit for some time, we felt it would be best to keep it the same as the Eco rules for clarity.
Dave - your thoughts!?
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Post by Dave Chamberlain on Feb 4, 2010 14:06:49 GMT
I'd like to stick with the £40 limit & keep the F1 aligned with ECO where possible..
It then allows for easy migration between both classes..
Does the extra £10 get much more in terms of feature set / performance if you take the "standard" £35-40 Fusion Podium 12T most of the ECO guys currently run???
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Post by Martin Young on Feb 4, 2010 14:10:03 GMT
What about using old speed controllers kicking around in pitboxes any provision for using these?
Mine is an MRT Vtrac FP (copyright on the instructions is 1998, so not new technology) but when purchased will have had a lot higher price than £40.
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Post by lesbaldry on Feb 4, 2010 14:45:12 GMT
I'd like to stick with the £40 limit & keep the F1 aligned with ECO where possible.. It then allows for easy migration between both classes.. Does the extra £10 get much more in terms of feature set / performance if you take the "standard" £35-40 Fusion Podium 12T most of the ECO guys currently run??? No but it might get you a internal Lipo cut out as aposed to buying one separately?  just a thought  ....mine was £45 with cut out. |
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Post by Dave Chamberlain on Feb 4, 2010 15:16:51 GMT
I see where your comming from Les, no one wants a birds nest wiring job with additional cut offs etc.. But you don't have to spend £45 to get a speedo with Lipo cut off... The Podium 17T is around £30ish and has a 5.5V Lipo off (Just make sure it's a T and not the TS  ) The F1's are a visually very attractive class which will I'm sure bring a few more new members to the club. It would be nice to keep the competitive cost base as low as possible without taking the "serious" racing edge away from the class.. As for old ESC's Martin, I think we would leave that to a peer review from your fellow F1 competitors & "Race Directors" descretion.. Obviously if you are going to rock up with the pick of the crop £200+ brushed ESC from 2007 you're taking the mick! but a 1998 classic would be a safer bet.. It isn't a straight foward call unless you start dictating a control ESC as well as a control motor.. I'd welcome any comments from any other F1ers |
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Post by oldtimeracer on Feb 4, 2010 15:40:16 GMT
It's interesting that Bedworth have decided on an "open" electrics F1 class and from what I have seen there is little difference between cars in respect of speed. I guess this is more down to not being able to put too much power down with two wheel drive than anything else.
Allowing "old" speedos that people have lying around could well be a can of worms. It would only take someone to start winning with a certain "old" speedo for others to start actively searching flee bay etc for the same which sort of spoils it.
Might just be worth trying the class with what everyone has to start with and actually see what works and what does not. Indoors it is a different thing altogether as that is more down to using foams than a particular motor/speedo etc.
Outdoors will be a different ball game. You need to just go and try it first.
Especially for those who have never raced 2WD outdoors on tarmac. Go and try it before you make too many rules. It may just surprise you how difficult it actually is.
In my opinion anyway.
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Post by lesbaldry on Feb 5, 2010 8:38:13 GMT
Understood Dave  I think Jamie and I are runing the TS version so this may exclude us  As for Martins speedos,the guys on a budget and personaly it would'nt bother me what type of old speedo he ran (in club circles if you know what I mean) As Ian rightly said F1 outdoors even with foams is a different ball game,toooo much grunt will make them a pig to drive ;D My school of thought at the moment is to keep the motor power quite low but to gear the car high to give good top speed but to keep it drivable out of corners??..only testing will tell any way the desiding factor with any sealed can motor is how its "treated" plus good cells will make a big difference!!! ask Jamie My only concern is after watching the pan cars and a F1 at aldershot last Sunday they do bounce around a lot on the bumps (solid rear axle) and our track as it stands at the moment they may well prove toooo hard to drive with lots of power...mind you leaving the motor choice open (any sealed can) its then down to the driver? .....just my thoughts |
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Post by Reuben on Feb 5, 2010 11:15:43 GMT
as brushed technology is not being advanced much due to demand more on brushless electronics. How do the newer mid-priced esc's compare on performance to the older ones, and the £27.99 to the £34.99 and the £44.99? What we are trying to do is to make the series fun and not to competitive for you guys. however as the class is relatively new and racers have already splashed out on electronics, i can understand the need to change the rules, rather than going out to buy a newer speedo. Maybe its the motor that is making the biggest difference. on wednesday night Jamie and Les are running the same speedo (different motors, with jamies not necessarily being a faster wind) and Jamies F1 is REALLY quick compared to the rest of the field? That will be the hardest thing to police. Hand out motors at a higher entry fee (to cover the cost of the motor over the series), that are handed back at the end of the meeting? because saying we will be using X motor, this allows people to go out and tune the motors, maybe then people mistakingly think its the ESC thats giving the power (rather than the motor). As its usually the guys that know the tuning tricks that have been doing this the longest, have the more expensive esc's. And spending money on a new esc for the novice is an easier and apparent instant solution, rather than testing gearings or tuning motors. its a difficult position, one I dont know the answers to, or wouldnt like to propose any anwers to. As ever racer is different and would like different things. (I know I would like the BRCA to ban timing esc's and re-level the playing field  ). Maybe Open class is the way forward?? |
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Post by lesbaldry on Feb 5, 2010 12:45:00 GMT
as brushed technology is not being advanced much due to demand more on brushless electronics. How do the newer mid-priced esc's compare on performance to the older ones, and the £27.99 to the £34.99 and the £44.99? What we are trying to do is to make the series fun and not to competitive for you guys. however as the class is relatively new and racers have already splashed out on electronics, i can understand the need to change the rules, rather than going out to buy a newer speedo. Maybe its the motor that is making the biggest difference. on wednesday night Jamie and Les are running the same speedo (different motors, with jamies not necessarily being a faster wind) and Jamies F1 is REALLY quick compared to the rest of the field? That will be the hardest thing to police. Hand out motors at a higher entry fee (to cover the cost of the motor over the series), that are handed back at the end of the meeting? because saying we will be using X motor, this allows people to go out and tune the motors, maybe then people mistakingly think its the ESC thats giving the power (rather than the motor). As its usually the guys that know the tuning tricks that have been doing this the longest, have the more expensive esc's. And spending money on a new esc for the novice is an easier and apparent instant solution, rather than testing gearings or tuning motors. its a difficult position, one I dont know the answers to, or wouldnt like to propose any anwers to. As ever racer is different and would like different things. (I know I would like the BRCA to ban timing esc's and re-level the playing field ). Maybe Open class is the way forward?? Reubs I dont think any one will know how the various makes of cheap ESC's fair against each other,mines only recently brought (last year befor F1) I think a good or better speedo (30 or 50 quid) will be irrelevant if we allow any sealed can as there is only so much power these cars will handle,after all they are a lot cheaper than a ESC. Im not keen on "used " hand outs ,you will never know what you are getting (previously abused) any way anyone with the years of experiance "know how " can "tweak" any hand out on the day so policing any motor is point less...any sealed can here then makes sense to me,they are extremely cheap with a good range of power for a drivers choice,ie If a said driver thinks his speedo or cells are lacking he could easily up the power with a 15t Ansman (I think will be way tooo quick) Put it this way,I ran my F1 at Newbury (large indoor track) with a 28t Ansman,it had more than enough power to be fun with a top speed probably as fast as any 17.5 TC FI on tarmac WILL be a lot harder to drive with power than some may think.the F1 has a less sofisticated chassis plus the body shell down force is a lot less compared to GT10. With my present hi power cells and 45 quid speedo I would'nt fancy runing anything hotter than a 21t/27t motor at bashers,but a racer with say a 20 quid speedo and 20c cells could up his speed easily with "any motor choice"...so if we are to keep it cheap and fair you will also have to put a limit on cells too,impractical!we allready have our choice of cells. The last thing any of us want is for this little fun class is to be pirouetting lawn mowing missiles ;D...lets do some testing first Thought chaps?? |
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Post by oldtimeracer on Feb 5, 2010 13:32:39 GMT
If you are to run a "sealed" can motor of any description then the speedo will make little if any difference. This has been proved in the past. What will make a huge difference is the cells and (most importantly!) the driver!
Set up, weight, tyres and driver skill will have more effect than any change of speedo.
Like I said before, don't go worrying too much about all this until you have run the cars outside. All will be revealed then believe me.
I seem to remember we were running old 27 turn stock motors last time we ran outdoors with F1. They were plenty quick enough and in some cases too quick.
Lack of grip, too much throttle and a bumpy track will make most people not want to get too fast.
Looking forward to the challenge again!
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Post by lesbaldry on Feb 5, 2010 13:58:36 GMT
If you are to run a "sealed" can motor of any description then the speedo will make little if any difference. This has been proved in the past. What will make a huge difference is the cells and (most importantly!) the driver! Set up, weight, tyres and driver skill will have more effect than any change of speedo. Like I said before, don't go worrying too much about all this until you have run the cars outside. All will be revealed then believe me. I seem to remember we were running old 27 turn stock motors last time we ran outdoors with F1. They were plenty quick enough and in some cases too quick. Lack of grip, too much throttle and a bumpy track will make most people not want to get too fast. Spot on Ian,nice to read some experianced words  |
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Post by Dave Chamberlain on Feb 5, 2010 16:39:03 GMT
Well, I've still to build my F10 but I'm now thinking 3.5T brushless, Nosram turbo nutter spec ESC, 3cell LiPo, Wrigleys fresh mint (it is a type of rubber!!) gum tyres and 2kg (4.40924524 pounds Les & Ian) of lead to keep the Ar*e end down Oh and I might throw in a hand full of dry ice into the side pods for that full F1 effect!! What say you? ? |
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Post by lesbaldry on Feb 6, 2010 8:56:03 GMT
Well, (4.40924524 pounds Les & Ian) ....... |
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Post by darrenoakley on Feb 6, 2010 10:27:43 GMT
Oh and I might throw in a hand full of dry ice into the side pods for that full F1 effect!! What say you? ? Dont know about the dry ice Dave, Les motor did the full effect without it wed ;D |
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Post by Dave Chamberlain on Feb 6, 2010 12:49:02 GMT
Well, (4.40924524 pounds Les & Ian) ....... ;D ;D |
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Post by oldtimeracer on Feb 8, 2010 16:30:42 GMT
Dave I don't think there is much anyone can say to that except that we all look forward to seeing do your first lap!
Better hurry up and get it built I reckon. I am already hunting hop ups and speed secrets!
;D ;D ;D
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Post by lesbaldry on Feb 8, 2010 21:31:20 GMT
Oh and I might throw in a hand full of dry ice into the side pods for that full F1 effect!! What say you? ? Dont know about the dry ice Dave, Les motor did the full effect without it wed ;D It did look good getting slower down the strait bellowing smoke through the rear spoiler...Just like Masa with a blown engine ;D |
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Derek C
At the Thermometer
SHMCC Committee Member
Posts: 227
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Post by Derek C on Feb 15, 2010 17:57:51 GMT
f1 motors . With all the comment around motors can I suggest that we restrict motors to either tamiya silver can or the 21 turn ansmann the racer has this choice
DEREK
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Post by issac on Feb 15, 2010 20:41:44 GMT
Questions
a 21 turn Ansmann has the same label as a 15 turn Ansmann so do you want people to cheat?
why give the advantage to the Ansmann motor as a tamiya silver can isn't a 21 turn motor (tamiya list it as a 27 turn with the black can as a 27 turn with better brushes and advanced timing for better speed)
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Post by jamietraylor on Feb 15, 2010 21:40:11 GMT
I have tried a 15 turn ansmann and there is no way you can get the gearing on a f1 without cooking the motor so you could'nt use one instead of 21 turn and if you did manage to get the gearing it would look stupid quick i expect. I agree that it should be one or the other though. tamiya silver can is good indoors but i expect it would be slow outdoors but create close racing. tamiya black can or 21 turn ansmann would probably be good to try outdoors.Has anyone tried any motors outdoors yet?
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Post by mattsedgley on Feb 15, 2010 23:33:19 GMT
Questions a 21 turn Ansmann has the same label as a 15 turn Ansmann so do you want people to cheat? Answers We'd just check the paint marking on the back of the can Ian, a 15T would be pretty obvious I think... I ran one in 4wd mini, and it was insane on power.. easily the same as a 17.5 driven by a decent pilot... why give the advantage to the Ansmann motor as a tamiya silver can isn't a 21 turn motor (tamiya list it as a 27 turn with the black can as a 27 turn with better brushes and advanced timing for better speed) Answers Dereks suggestion is that most people have a silver can rolling around, so it gets people started.. when they're ready to move up - it's only 7.99 to upgrade.. both of which should be easy to drive we hope.. seems pretty sensible to me to be honest.. However I've never driven a f1 outdoors, or indoors for more than 5 or 6 laps.. they need to be tested in each of the different chassis that we have in the club... |
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Post by Reality Racer on Feb 16, 2010 9:45:25 GMT
All Ansmann 21t motors from Reality Racing are marked with a painted green dot on the end or the Eco Touring class.
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Post by lesbaldry on Feb 16, 2010 10:14:23 GMT
Im with Jamie and Derek on this one.
Jamie and I have run various motors over the past few weeks,some are way to quick to be fun,
Last week I ran a very old Mardave stock motor ,fun! but still a bit to quick for our little indoor track...Jamie was runing a Tamia mini stock silver can that seemed perfect to me for all abilitys..Ill be trying one this wed>
As for outdoors,testing will tell,perhaps the 28 or 21t Ansman??
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Post by oldtimeracer on Feb 16, 2010 10:14:35 GMT
Ran the HPI F1 car on Saturday around our outdoor track. Was using a Tamiya black can Sport Tuned motor and can honestly say it was plenty fast enough. There is no need for anything more powerfull in a two wheel drive car. It was a handfull especially as out track is quite bumpy. The car was quite quick on the straight if you could hang on to it and there is no need for more speed around the corners as it just spins out with too much power.
In my opinion restricting them to either a silver or black can would be OK. Try that and see what happens.
If anyone can do a whole race with a black can and not spin off I would be more than a little surprised!
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Post by Dave Chamberlain on Feb 16, 2010 12:42:40 GMT
Thanks for the feedback Ian,
After a suggestion from Derek we were thinking along the line of Ansmann 21T or Tamyia Silver as the starting motor choice. At least if you can't get a 21T you will be able to find a silver to start with..
How does the Tam black can stack up with an Ansmann 21T??
We really need a group test on the track for a good few hours I guess..
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Post by Reuben on Feb 16, 2010 12:53:46 GMT
What about getting some F1's down for the outdoor meeting on the 28th Feb? its a non championship meeting and hopefully it should be dry.
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Post by Mike V on Feb 16, 2010 13:15:51 GMT
better go and buy an f109 then! |
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Post by lesbaldry on Feb 16, 2010 13:45:32 GMT
Thanks for the feedback Ian, After a suggestion from Derek we were thinking along the line of Ansmann 21T or Tamyia Silver as the starting motor choice. At least if you can't get a 21T you will be able to find a silver to start with.. How does the Tam black can stack up with an Ansmann 21T?? We really need a group test on the track for a good few hours I guess.. Dave Ill think you will find a 21t Ansman is too fast for indoors (tried one) its a rever and its prob to get the gearing (overheats) unless a stupid size spur is fitted even then its a bit fast for all abilitys...Probably a good choice of out door motor,its got plenty of top end but has "soft" punch ,ideal for F1 on tarmac?? |
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just a thought 
....mine was £45 with cut out.
I think Jamie and I are runing the TS version so this may exclude us 
). Maybe Open class is the way forward??
