Darren
Hitting the Tyre
It's better to crash and burn than to fade away
Posts: 88
|
Post by Darren on Jun 8, 2010 20:52:29 GMT
I have the orion vortex and pearl evo, one press on a button brings up lights which identifies Profile parameters...ie drive power profile (1-5) and timing (1-8) etc. Would take an RD about 20 secs before and after a race to check, so if Nosram pearls evo can be use i dont see why Orion Vortexs Cant. They both work the same way to set up and check with different coloured lights to identify parameters. Plus with the spped passion cant someone just plug the program card in and check....?
Plus nice to see someone trying to make an effort to help people race at a fun/competative level without breaking the bank. Reason why i stopped racing touring car was cause i didnt wanna spend £500 on a esc and notebook just to keep up and seeing that nowhere close does Mod i just sacked it.
|
|
|
Post by Jazzler on Jun 8, 2010 21:10:47 GMT
But an awful lot of rules/scrutinering to be done at race meeting taking valuable track time from racers and committee alike. Evening racing is tight time wise already and this would just make it shorter. I was under the impression that this is a 'rules/class proposal', that people would be expected to adhere to. Not something to police.. i.e. people would be trusted to race within the rules, with the occasional random scrutineering. Not something that would require strict policing after each round. This would, after all be for 'Club' racers. A move to a more level playing field electronics wise and where un-sportsman like cheating would be frowned upon. It seems pretty straight forward to me. Obviously there is no answer that will cater for everyone, and cheats are only cheating themselves. But reading that document a lot of hard work and thought has gone into it and it should be embraced.. Now is the time to put forward ideas and your thoughts that could improve the proposal. I didn't think for a minute that the list provided in the document was exhaustive, and I'm sure that if anything appears missing that people have but fits into the category would be added at a later date should it be required.
|
|
|
Post by Reuben on Jun 8, 2010 21:22:43 GMT
I have the orion vortex and pearl evo, one press on a button brings up lights which identifies Profile parameters...ie drive power profile (1-5) and timing (1-8) etc. Would take an RD about 20 secs before and after a race to check, so if Nosram pearls evo can be use i dont see why Orion Vortexs Cant. They both work the same way to set up and check with different coloured lights to identify parameters. Plus with the spped passion cant someone just plug the program card in and check....? Plus nice to see someone trying to make an effort to help people race at a fun/competative level without breaking the bank. Reason why i stopped racing touring car was cause i didnt wanna spend £500 on a esc and notebook just to keep up and seeing that nowhere close does Mod i just sacked it. indeed. There is no reason these cannot be added with the current proposal. However if people did want to move to a stricter ESC setting only allowing ESC's that show permanently that there is no timing then we will use the ROAR ESC list (which would not include a number of ESC's owned in and arround the club) for the sake of easier policing. www.roarracing.com/downloads/ROAR_Sportsman_Control_ESC_List.pdf
|
|
|
Post by darrenoakley on Jun 8, 2010 21:49:27 GMT
In theory it sound very fair and I am all for that. You seemed to have left the first part of my post out when you qouted it Jason I wasn't complaining about the proposal or the work gone into it just thinking out loud. If it works on trust then its not a consideration,
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Jun 8, 2010 21:51:35 GMT
Blimey chaps we have opened a can of worms Having read some posts I'm having a problem understanding what the so called "obvious divide in the club" is all about,is it the speed difference between the Gen speedos,the price of speed,or the speed its self being too fast? or all three,if its this then we do have a problem!! If its the former two then a gen3 speedo with similar performance as the top brands can be had for as little as £60 or if its the later then a fixed setting speedo of various makes "might" be the answer(the list) but motors and the way they are tuned will play a big part in speed difference no mater what speedo is used, so unless the club pays attention to this important factor we will be back to square one,ie someone will always be faster!and someone will always whinge! Some one please tell me what we are trying to achieve by a class change,excuse my ignorance here but all I see is a loose loose situation.If we were to slow things down to say 1st gen 17.5 speeds the faster lads will get probably get bored and not bother to run.Should we find a equal power reasonable speed motor combo to use this is still going to cost and upset those on limited funds.If we go down the route of fixed list speedos they will need to be run with a 13.5 to keep the speed reasonable(17.5 on a bottom setting is extremely slow regardless of ESC generation) so this will also cost the lads who just have 17.5s. Heres a thought, to keep things simple and pretty close with reasonable speeds in 17.5 put a limit on the FDR (easier to check/police if ness) then the lads with 3rd gen speedos will have to turn the boost/timing down or dig out last years gear,now where did I put my old stock spec and who did I sell my Losi 17.5 too ;D
|
|
|
Post by Reuben on Jun 8, 2010 23:03:01 GMT
I cant see how this is a loose loose situation when we are not taking anything away from how it currently is? we intend to add an extra class on-top of what we already run, if you want to go faster then you can run boost and whatever in Stock or Open Touring. And if a racer doesnt want to go True Stock, they can still race as it currently is - without any effect on them
I cant see how 17.5 Gen1 is "too" slow when a number of the club racers were hitting 18-19 laps when running Gen1 17.5 at 1500. if you look at the times for stock this year so far in the club champ and RRC - not many are even reaching low 18 or 19 laps... sure they are slower in a straight line - but more driveable with less wear and tear? definitely
The idea was to provide a stepping stone or an alternative entry class for new members who dont want to do ECO, or want to move from Eco to a class where they can learn setup without the need to go to fast. And to also provide a class for the older and casual racer who doesnt want to race beyond their limits / skill / reactions, without being stuck using a RTR chassis. Sure they could run in stock as it is, at the moment - but wheres the incentive if your always going to be mid-pack and no seeing any just rewards?
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Jun 8, 2010 23:03:07 GMT
Fair comments Les. But and I think it is a big but,I don't think that is what the committee is trying trying to do.
They feel as I read it that the gulf has got too wide and that the beginners/less capable class needs slowing down. I haven't been at the track for a while now but seeing the times being posted in 17.5 I suspect they are right!
BUT there is nothing to stop 17.5 drivers entering the Stock class and driving as fast as 10.5s!!!!
But don't lets get carried away guys, as Les has already said, apart from the few, someone will will always be faster than you because they are a better driver or their car is setup better or they have a better ESC/engine combo - that is not better more expensive, that is better matched.
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Jun 8, 2010 23:19:45 GMT
God – Oh Campbell you shouldn’t post this. Campbell – Oh God I know but I am weak willed and am missing my racing, where’s a guy to get his entertainment from So what has happened to the fun mantra then? Suddenly everyone wants to win too? Is Team Campbell no longer in the minority? Is our signature no longer scorned at but something to aspire to? Reuben I saw this coming a mile off which is why pre season I suggested during the looooong Gen 3 thread the re-instatement of F1/F2 but no-one on the Committee took it up. Pretty much the same result that you are pursuing and no “complicated” change or cost BUT I like your proposal and still support it
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Jun 8, 2010 23:50:51 GMT
I cant see how this is a loose loose situation when we are not taking anything away from how it currently is? we intend to add an extra class on-top of what we already run, if you want to go faster then you can run boost and whatever in Stock or Open Touring. And if a racer doesnt want to go True Stock, they can still race as it currently is - without any effect on them I cant see how 17.5 Gen1 is "too" slow when a number of the club racers were hitting 18-19 laps when running Gen1 17.5 at 1500. if you look at the times for stock this year so far in the club champ and RRC You are the one who quoted we have an obvious divide in the club no one else!! Take another read and digest the first paragraph of the proposal "stating amongst the club members" I presume you mean the problem is with current ones?as thats how it reads,nothing to do with a class for a Newby!!!!! Buy adding another 17.5 class we are diluting what we already have "very few doing stock!!!" we are not Aldershot with 100 plus members either...common sense to me is to get the speeds more equal and slightly slower so we can all race together to let the up and coming learn from the quicker lads!!at the moment its obvious that the speed difference between the gen speedos makes for difficult mixed racing! Quote "I cant see how 17.5 gen 1 is too slow etc etc YAWN YAWN " hmmm that I find laughable as you have incorrectly interpreted my meaning considering I was referring to my self and the likes of Jamie and Grey plus I for one have always tried to support 17.5 at club meets and not frighten new members off with the Mach 1 speeds of 13.5... No doubt your vast experience with RC racing history should guide the club correctly in the future with this problem,all this thread is doing is stiring sh1t and complicating maters..carry on!
|
|
|
Post by mattsedgley on Jun 9, 2010 6:47:11 GMT
What about... F1 - using timing on the fly (17.5, gen 3) F2 - anything else (17.5, gen1, gen2) where possible the class will be split f1/f2 otherwise, the run combined, no real changes, other than a seperate championship for the f2 drivers
superstock - open touring as per original proposal, does that simplify the system?
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Jun 9, 2010 7:20:14 GMT
Theres a perfectly simple solution to a stepping stone class thats been driven and proved to be fast enough for 18 laps by my self and Terry...YES 18 laps for a £40 of ESC and motor power!!The eco pro class,but according to some experts theres too much difference between the sealed motors,the same goes for current BL 17.5s....Theres also a difference between the proposed listed speedos too As for keeping the current 17.5 class speeds equal for all to enjoy close racing ....try restricting the FDR this as I posted earlier this will make 3rd gen runners have to reduce the timing /boost or dig out their old gear!secondly I recommend "some members" to practice what they preach,set an example and fully support 17.5 in what ever guise the club decide to do with the rules...or will it be too slow for some there for reducing numbers in the long run?...1st gen speeds yes!! but last years gear which the majority are running or have is a comfortable speed thats kind to the car and tyres!! Personally Im quite happy to run older gen gear in 17.5 along with those who have the same for fun and close racing..its those who in the past have persisted to run 3rd gen gear along side the up and coming racers who are guilty of causing the so called "I cant keep up"divide in the first place ...And thats one reason why I have not been attending Sunday meetings!!
|
|
|
Post by martinchallis on Jun 9, 2010 7:50:22 GMT
all this thread is doing is stiring sh1t and complicating maters..carry on! agreed!
|
|
|
Post by Jazzler on Jun 9, 2010 8:05:59 GMT
You seemed to have left the first part of my post out when you qouted it Jason Sorry mate, no insult intended. Just wanted to comment on the issue with monitoring it which you raised.
|
|
|
Post by darrenoakley on Jun 9, 2010 8:26:02 GMT
No problem Jason. I don't have a problem with the praposal as the class I am racing in currently has not changed. I do however think that the Eco pro would be a good low cost option and also simplify the rules maybe one sealed can choice ? We could maybe do with an opinion from someone who is planing on racing in the new class ?
|
|
|
Post by Reuben on Jun 9, 2010 10:05:47 GMT
all this thread is doing is stiring sh1t and complicating maters..carry on! agreed! But there is no need for it to do so? This Class amendment is not 100% set in stone - which is why this post went up with a Suggestion... A broken one? maybe But a step in the right direction? Definitely I would be happy to vote for Pro-Eco instead, my only concern is the lack of racers it is accessible to without the need for new equipment and therefore numbers would be low in the class and it would die out. The F1/F2 split for the classes As Matt and Pete suggested is a superb idea - but members would have to be on agreement where that split lays and what ESC's appear in each category? Kind of like a broard Stock/True Stock split but running it together. Ide just like to point out that I do not intend to run in either True Stock or Pro Eco, I am very happy blasting a 13.5 round at gen3 speeds as its more of a challenge for me. Im not fussed on the rules or the outcome - as long as the racers who want to race them are content and there is a suitable option/class available at our club for up-coming newbies and the more casual racer who wants more than RTR.
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Jun 9, 2010 10:58:19 GMT
all this thread is doing is stiring sh1t and complicating maters..carry on! agreed! I would be happy to vote for Pro-Eco instead, my only concern is the lack of racers it is accessible to without the need for new equipment and therefore numbers would be low in the class and it would die out. The F1/F2 split for the classes As Matt and Pete suggested is a superb idea - but members would have to be on agreement where that split lays and what ESC's appear in each category? Kind of like a broard Stock/True Stock split but running it together. 1 would be a step up from the Ansman (about time big Dave had a go at a proper chassis It would also appeal to the newby who wants to run a pro chassis and learn set up from day one without the ex pence of a BL combo 2 may not work due to the speed difference between the Gen's It bad enough at the moment trying to pass or be passed by safely without ruining yours or others qually time (like running 13.5 along side 10.5 at another track).....but splitting the gens heats just dilutes things...as I said there is not enough of us at some meets!!.introducing a relative Newby into a mixed heat like this would be a disaster for all that's why we some how need to keep the speeds somewhere equal for all to enjoy Maybe Its about time the faster guys with gen 3's sacrificed some speed by running Gen 2's for the sake of the club,fun and importantly the up and coming members who want to race along side the faster guys,but I guarantee it would bore the pants off a few therefor a risk in reducing runners....there's nothing worse than feeling defeated befor you even turn a wheel. Is there a simple Answer to equal speed? NO!! not without a cost of some sort to the pocket or membership.Threr's a lot of clubs suffereing this dilema at the moment unfortunatly we are small and this will effect us even worse...lets hope this sh1t blows over soon so we can get back to fun!!
|
|
|
Post by Antz on Jun 9, 2010 12:38:55 GMT
Ill have u know that dad has got a proper chassis lol hes got himslef a Cyclone TC
|
|
|
Post by Dean on Jun 9, 2010 16:00:08 GMT
Ill have u know that dad has got a proper chassis lol hes got himslef a Cyclone TC When will we be seeing it on the track
|
|
|
Post by Antz on Jun 9, 2010 21:06:01 GMT
No idea Dean. Anyways ive just raced the eco pro class tonight using a pro chassis(a Photon) and done a 17/302 with all the ansmann gear in 21t brushed motor and the starndard speedo. (ok i was racing on my own.)It handled very well and a good way to learn the track at a medium speed. I thought it was a very good speed not to quick or not to slow which will be a good thing where members may want to move up from ansmann to this new class Eco Pro. I think this will be a very fun class to be in and hopefully will have some very close racing!!! ;D
|
|
|
Post by Reuben on Jun 9, 2010 22:00:55 GMT
No idea Dean. Anyways ive just raced the eco pro class tonight using a pro chassis(a Photon) and done a 17/302 with all the ansmann gear in 21t brushed motor and the starndard speedo. (ok i was racing on my own.)It handled very well and a good way to learn the track at a medium speed. I thought it was a very good speed not to quick or not to slow which will be a good thing where members may want to move up from ansmann to this new class Eco Pro. I think this will be a very fun class to be in and hopefully will have some very close racing!!! ;D Thats good news! Can I buy your hobbywing speedo off you ?? After some Feedback from a number of members Pro-Eco seems to be the way to go.... should we amend the proposal to the following classes: Eco Pro-Eco (21t sealed can, pro-chassis) Stock Superstock or Open Touring. This doesnt fix Stock, but does give people a chance to move to a slower class if they want and also allows people to move out of Eco when they feel like learning setup.
|
|
|
Post by Antz on Jun 9, 2010 22:05:03 GMT
No u can not lol ;D
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Jun 9, 2010 22:27:22 GMT
Re F1/F2. I think Matt and I are actually proposing 2 different things - and it may be that this will answer some of the valid points Les made in his last post.
I was coming at it from ability not technology. Generalities here to explain the point, don't get hung up on the fine detail which needs to worked out. EG If F2 Stock were 18 laps and below then it doesn't matter if there is a mix of ESCs because hopefully most having moved up from Eco, will be capable of 16 laps. It doesn't work totally because Ross comes to mind and indeed any rank beginner who happens to have a Stock chassis . Then again heat seeding etc should avoid most of the problems
Equally if F1 is 19 laps upwards, firstly most will be capable drivers, ie well able to get out of the way, and again a 2ish laps max difference.
I confess it does have a major flaw though because it suggests F1/F2 should not be combined if numbers are low on the the day - but then I guess we have that issue now anyway
To be clear, everyone runs any valid Stock equipment as now. If some one puts in a 19/316 they compete in F1 from thereon - detail, maybe it is hitting 19 twice before you move.
I don't know whether it is better or worse than what Matt suggested, I just wanted to point out the difference.
|
|
|
Post by mattsedgley on Jun 9, 2010 23:00:03 GMT
that's an interesting concept Pete, I do quite like it, perhaps it's not entirely suitable to this issue, however you may know the answer to the following question..
What happens if I start a championship as F2 and over the course of the championship (12 weeks) I progress from F2 to F1... do I loose the points from one championship F table? - I don't know the answer I've never seen it done...
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Jun 9, 2010 23:20:25 GMT
Yeah I thought of that one last night Matt and 24 hours later I still don't have an answer!!
I did kind of start to feel that the immense personal self esteem gained from promotion to the exalted F1 class would overcome any issues over not winning a championship. I suppose one way to mitigate it would be for each F2 race entered you take the lowest F1 points for that race, so at least you start with a bucket of points - and indeed that is fair to a point. It gets difficult if the F2 class leader gets promoted after the penultimate race of the championship. It could be of course with best 7 from 10 or whatever that he may have already won the F2 championship. But yes it is a tricky one.
|
|
paulb
Hitting the Tyre
Posts: 52
|
Post by paulb on Jun 10, 2010 6:51:07 GMT
After some Feedback from a number of members Pro-Eco seems to be the way to go.... should we amend the proposal to the following classes: Eco Pro-Eco (21t sealed can, pro-chassis) Stock Superstock or Open Touring. This doesnt fix Stock, but does give people a chance to move to a slower class if they want and also allows people to move out of Eco when they feel like learning setup. Gets my vote
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Jun 10, 2010 7:16:23 GMT
No idea Dean. Anyways ive just raced the eco pro class tonight using a pro chassis(a Photon) and done a 17/302 with all the ansmann gear in 21t brushed motor and the starndard speedo. (ok i was racing on my own.)It handled very well and a good way to learn the track at a medium speed. I thought it was a very good speed not to quick or not to slow which will be a good thing where members may want to move up from ansmann to this new class Eco Pro. I think this will be a very fun class to be in and hopefully will have some very close racing!!! ;D Thank you Antz for your honest opinion.I tested the same combo at my own expense,time and a paid race fee to test this for the club a little while ago one wed ,I posted my results but had very little feed back as did Terry Crew IMHO with the pro chassis's lighter weight and better handling it will make an extremely cheap steeping stone to the clubs bread and butter class17.5,I also feel due to the sedate pace of this combo it could be safely ran along side the Ansman class! plus also "should the committee agree" in the future there is also the 15t motor to use should members require "a little more speed" As for speedo ruling ,it may pay to have a look at whats available? plus some members may also have "a older"speedo " than may not fall into a set price range should the committee decide on one.
|
|
|
Post by Martin Young on Jun 10, 2010 7:25:59 GMT
that's an interesting concept Pete, I do quite like it, perhaps it's not entirely suitable to this issue, however you may know the answer to the following question.. What happens if I start a championship as F2 and over the course of the championship (12 weeks) I progress from F2 to F1... do I loose the points from one championship F table? - I don't know the answer I've never seen it done... The F1 F2 split is calculated at DMCRC on ability only and i feel it works well. In there case a spreadsheet was kept each week regarding the drivers % time in relation to the FTD. The information was then averaged out over a three month period and then split between F2 less than or equal to 80% of FTD and F1 anything above 80%. For SHMCC its even easier as the outdoor track is and the same layout each week so it can be calculated on laps completed each week, i think it is important to gain the laps completed over a decent time period and work on the average this takes out any anomaly's. With regards to if someone who improves we just made it simple when the championship started if you were in F2 then thats where you stayed until the championship was over. I think anything else will become complicated and IMO unnecessary. I agree with the pro-eco class being the best route without doubt and and open motor class for me is a great option as well. What ever is decided on the stock will be but i would just implore you not to rule out old speedos that members already have within the new rules. Just one question to ask the committee. Are there many complaints from club members who race in the stock class about the speed gaps between speedos? The great thing IMO about RC Car racing is it doesn't matter what speed or ability you are, if the heats are sorted correctly you will always have a good race with someone with the same speed. I like most enjoy the racing more than the winning (and before anyone says it i know i don't win much!) so for me i want to see close racing whether thats the top heat or the bottom i don't care and i know my kids don't either.
|
|
|
Post by Reality Racer on Jun 10, 2010 8:20:02 GMT
After some Feedback from a number of members Pro-Eco seems to be the way to go.... should we amend the proposal to the following classes: Eco Pro-Eco (21t sealed can, pro-chassis) Stock Superstock or Open Touring. This doesnt fix Stock, but does give people a chance to move to a slower class if they want and also allows people to move out of Eco when they feel like learning setup. That gets my vote also. I think a few others are up for this format to. Antz. When are you getting a Photon then? ;D
|
|
|
Post by Antz on Jun 10, 2010 14:33:41 GMT
No problem les Antz. When are you getting a Photon then? ;D No idea Terry still deciding on what to get ;D
|
|
|
Post by Mike V on Jun 10, 2010 19:49:44 GMT
should we amend the proposal to the following classes: Eco Pro-Eco (21t sealed can, pro-chassis) Stock Superstock or Open Touring. also gets my vote, especially as if there are low numbers the speed differences are not too different to the eco class (as I'm pretty sure I saw last meeting?). It actually looked like quite a competitive mixed class! I love the idea that we can start the new racers off with a car that could see them through the next tiers of classes too, one car fits all so to speak. We can all act as mentors for those drivers too, sharing knowledge and helping them develop their skills all that kind of stuff that being a club is all about I don't think you can ever put a cap on technology, it's accelerating rapidly, and those who want to be practising with speeds and kit ready for other events appreciate the practice. Unfortunately there are not enough racers to split the classes much further, and where do you draw the line? I dont think you can easily. It's ability more than technology that would need to be considered for a change to the stock class when we have enough members to do so...which is where the pro eco class comes in..... P.S. I note about running profiles on speedos (esp the GM) on the allowed speed control list, it is mentioned that you would have to run mode 2 on the speedo with 2 blinking LEDs, I have my gen3 timing advance setup saved on mode 2, how could you differentiate from the 2 setups?
|
|