** Class Amendment Proposal **

[Reuben]

Hey guys.

its obvious that something needs to be done with the classes at the club, a number of people have been putting their heads together for the last weeks deciding what to do.

Attached its a proposal document, we would like to change the classes at the club as per the document explains.

Please feel free to add any comments to this thread.

Regards

Reuben

Attachments:

[Reuben]

This will also be announced during drivers briefing on Wednesday for drivers that do not use the forum. A copy of the proposal will be made available in Race Control as well over the next few weeks

[yellowshark]

Hi Reubs, two points

No idea what Star wound is - will Rossi's 17.5 qualify?

With the demise of the BRCA engine listings for Stock class, would it not be best to follow the regional championships and say "any commercially available engine" or whatever the precise wording is?

Just popping off to order the 6.5 now ;D

[Reuben]

Star wound is what we use at the moment and is basically every stock motor is star wound, only now are we seeing different winds like delta appearing in MOD. I cant think of a 17.5 at the moment that isnt Star wound. BTW Star wound is also known as Y wound (which is current regs)

Yes I agree with the commercially available (that was meant, as it falls in line with our current regs)

and yes you can run a 6.5 in open touring if you want.....good luck

[Chris N]

This sounds like a good idea. I can use some of my obsolete and otherwise worthless equipment laying around in my garage.

Can we include 21.5t brushless also? I have been running one last Wednesday and the previous Sunday, coupled with a Nosram Matrix on profile 8!. I have got almost 18 laps and I think the time was similar to Terry running the 21t Ansmann. I feel it has more to come but its finding the time to test it! It felt very relaxed to drive round our track and I could concentrate on driving rather than not crashing.

Maybe allow any ESC (with timing?) to see how fast they can get to. If they turn out too fast then limit them to no timing

[Jazzler]

Superb idea from the committee . This gets my vote.

[lesbaldry]

True stock is a super idea in theory but unless a "spec" speedo and motor is used there will always be a speed difference,even some of the speedos listed still have a certain amount of advance,besides there are motors available that when coupled to an old ISTC or most 1st gen speedos will near enough keep up with our latest gear on short tracks like ours,so should the club accept this "true stock" speedo list I suggest they draw up another hard to police and complicated list for motors too along with a set rules as there is nothing to stop "those in the know" buying one of theses high mag'ed motors or winding up the timing with a different rotor to gain an advantage other wise we will be back to square one,wont we???

Personally I would love to see us all with the same speed. but it will never happen unless we all run the same gear!!.. "spec" class, a same motor and speedo combo!!!

[paulb]

I guess you have a lot of people to try and please in this proposal but it sure looks difficult to police for RD and possibly confusing for the newcomer?

On a personal note, I've thoroughly enjoyed the Eco class. The rules are easy to understand, little in the way of speedo choice, just one motor choice and little in the way of performance gap. Cheap fun racing

Maybe there in lies the formula for a class to sit between Eco & Stock. The formula would appear to address a number of the concerns you raise.

[lesbaldry]

Do I "feel" for those who think they cant compete? Yes I do! I had to suffer exactly the same thing when I first started regardless whether or not i could keep up with the faster lads with the latest gear!!(and no I couldn't...I thought I could though ) For the sake of repeating myself this is history all over again!.
A few of us saw this coming a while ago and its just starting to "filter" down to the up and coming club members...Our governing body's should have seen this coming just like the ETS did and they stamped on it straight away with a "true" spec class!...If the governing body's had introduced "spec" racing correctly some while ago most of the clubs around the UK would have followed suit,we would have flourishing regional series,healthy clubs,many wouldn't have dropped out of the hobby and we wouldn't be debating this bloody problem!!!!......whinge over .......good luck with your choice committee!

[ianlloyd]

For what it's worth I tend to agree with Les in that the only way to get a "true" stock class that is as even as possible is to have a set speedo and motor rule OR run a set motor such as the Ansmann 21 turn and a price limit on the speedo. As Paul says it works well for the ECO class.

[Reuben]

Just something pulled from the RCtech forum on the Speed Passion Citrix thread (the ESC used now at the ETS)

"Last week we tested the Cirtix together with Tekin RS Pro, LRP SXX and the LRP SPX with a SpeedPassion 13.5 v3 with max timing on the motor. All ESCs on program 0-timing and boost. The result was very equal, laptimes differed around 0,05s max.

We did drive with 4-6 cars at the same time and all the guys had real fun, big smiles afterwards. We also checked topspeeds on a 35m straight. 45 km/h entering the straight and between 57 and 60 km/h at the end. When we switched motors the topspeed difference was the same, just a bearingproblem. One motor had the original blue bearingoil and the other one was already prepped without the blue stuff. This made the 3 km/h topspeed difference!!

So imo Stock is back!!!"

[lesbaldry]

Jun 8, 2010 15:23:46 GMT Reuben said:

Just something pulled from the RCtech forum on the Speed Passion Citrix thread (the ESC used now at the ETS)

"Last week we tested the Cirtix together with Tekin RS Pro, LRP SXX and the LRP SPX with a SpeedPassion 13.5 v3 with max timing on the motor. All ESCs on program 0-timing and boost. The result was very equal, laptimes differed around 0,05s max.

We did drive with 4-6 cars at the same time and all the guys had real fun, big smiles afterwards. We also checked topspeeds on a 35m straight. 45 km/h entering the straight and between 57 and 60 km/h at the end. When we switched motors the topspeed difference was the same, just a bearingproblem. One motor had the original blue bearingoil and the other one was already prepped without the blue stuff. This made the 3 km/h topspeed difference!!

So imo Stock is back!!!"

Thats brill...at least they have done their home work and Tested different ESC's properly,nice to see them stick to one motor too,nice and simple (KIS)...Can you see our "governing body's" doing this for the clubs/hobby??Nah nore can I

IMHO gen 3 speedos are a frustrating expensive pain in the rear!

[Reuben]

IMHO gen 3 speedos are a frustrating expensive pain in the rear!

Yes they are for most, and these proposals hopefully mean you dont need one.

racers can start either in ECO and move to True Stock with a pro-chassis (using same electronics) -> then if they want to upgrade to brushless they can -> when they have brushless, if they want to try open touring or gen3 stock, then they only have to purchase a new esc OR motor (not necessarily both).

Also right now (if nothing changes) if someone from Eco buys brushless to go into stock and cant compete with the speed of Gen3, then they will be stuck with an expensive paperweight and will want to go back to Eco where they dont NEED to go that fast to compete near the top....

if we want a spec class it cant be sealed can. from what i have heard (no experience to back this up), there are big differences in performance between sealed cans that you can buy - effectively it becomes a lottery. at least the brushless options gives someone the chance that they know what performance they will get???

[Martin Young]

Jun 8, 2010 16:43:35 GMT Reuben said:

IMHO gen 3 speedos are a frustrating expensive pain in the rear!

Yes they are for most, and these proposals hopefully mean you dont need one.

Its a bit irronic that we have 4 brushless speedo's only one that's legal for this class is the gen3!!

The new rules state for true stock: 'This class would include what has recently been known as Pro-Eco and Generation 1 ESC’s with no timing advance (whether it be Static or Dynamic)'

This to means if Lucas and Robert want to race in true stock class (which I think is probably best suited to them), I have to go and buy at least two new brushless speedo's.

I know this is aimed at closer more even racing but at the expense of having to spend more money.

I haven't been able to enter any F1 races outside due to my 10year old speedo being over the £40 price tag when it was new, now we can't race in the 'true stock' class either. with old gear i already have, how does that work???

Question: How does static timing on the ESC differ from advancing the timing on the motor?

[mattsedgley]

Sorry Martin,

Had you contacted the committee about running an old speedo in the F1 class?

Why would Lucas and Robert's ESC not fit the class rules??

the whole purpose of this class is to save members from having to buy new equipment.

[Martin Young]

If you remember Matt, I did post a question on the forum and nobody would commit to say it was OK to run or not. So I took that as it wasn't maybe my mistake?

Speed Passion V1.1 has Static Timing
Orion vortex (just about one of the cheapest speedo's you can buy) has Static timing

These are excluded! Am I correct or not?

[mattsedgley]

I don't recall you asking, but perhaps I missed the question also, otherwise I would have attempted to clarify the situation,

Both of the above ESC would be eligible to compete in the class, as would any speed controller that does not time on the fly, such as the LRP Sphere for example.

[Martin Young]

If that's the case fine, but to me you need to clarify the rules as it definately states no timing ESC (Static or Dynamic).

I agree in principle with the idea of a true stock and open class but the ways the rules are written I think it will make this class nearly impossible to police effectively. Surely a seal can motor is the way to go? Much simpler for the RD's as well.

[Dean]

what if someone from true stock wants to race with the stock without having timing on the speedo?

[Reuben]

Jun 8, 2010 19:31:11 GMT Dean said:

what if someone from true stock wants to race with the stock without having timing on the speedo?

They are more than welcome to do so....which is why its any ESC and profile 17.5.

The Orion and the SP 1.1 were left out of the document, as the Orion (which is the same as the Ko ESC) and SP 1.1 have no way of identifying whether the timing (static) has been turned off. Also in ROAR if you want to use the Orion (Ko), you need to send it back to the factory for firmware 1.5 (because that has the flashy light at zero timing).

You may wonder as to why did I include a stock spec and pearl (as these do not either). I did so purely because i was aware that a number of racers have these in the club and true stock may be suited to them, so the non-timing profile can be activated and checked by a RD and then run on trust and checked again. Plus due to amount of stock specs in the club (the likely hood of someone knowing how to check the profile is quite high).

We are able to add more ESC's to the list if need be - as long as the user is able to prove to the RD OR a member of the commitee / third party at any point during the day that their timing functions have been turned off (whether this is with a programming box with the SP or flashy lights with the Orion).

All we are trying to do is get as many people racing in a fairer class with more manageble speeds. Trying to encourage racing and not spending money or blowing motors.

The list is NOT final - I constructed it yesterday with a bit of help from the ROAR documentation, im not perfect and I did miss some ESC's

Alternatively if we cant run this with trust and some common sense the list will become very small and most would probably have to go and buy a new ESC (and I would bet my Mi4 the class would collapse if people had to purposely buy a ESC to race with) us)

[Reuben]

We could go sealed can only. But you would be cutting out a large portion of racers that would be able to ALREADY run True Stock without spending a single penny!

Same as if we went brushless only True Stock - we would be cutting the progression from Eco...

[Reuben]

Regarding Static Timing on the Motor.... In theory its the Same as ESC static timing, but due to motors having a different amount of timing built into the can as standard. it makes it a real B1TCH!

you then could point, so why restrict static timing on ESC?
2 reasons:

Future True Stock ESC's (such as LRP's, Team Powers and True Stock profiles) become at an immediate disadvantage.

After Adding Static Timing - where do you stop? because you are then into - why cant i add timing on the fly (stock spec, GM120v1) because its not gen3 boost?

[Martin Young]

Reubens,

I'm lost, will the kids be allowed to run these speedo's or not?

For the record the orion is the £50 cheapy not the KO version and i would think the chance of upgrading the firmware would be a non starter as its an entry level speedo.

[paulb]

Thinking out aloud can be dangerous I know, but would a 'handicap system' be workable? Maybe based around gen1, 2 & 3 speedos as this appears to be where the main concerns lie?

I guess it wouldn't be easy to operate on a race by race basis, but may work across a championship or series.

At least everyone could then run whatever they already have , without having to invest and it may avoid the need to create a new class that could prove difficult to manage.

A question for those who travel the country racing - do other clubs have a 'True StocK' class or cater for Eco, Stock and something in between?

[Reuben]

martin you got pm.

[yellowshark]

I think you have done a good job there Committee. Subject to my caveat you get my vote at both ends of the spectrum. It seems to me for true stock you only really have two options. The option you are proposing, or what other sports call one class:ie standard ESC and engine. The issue with that though is that probably most members would have to spend £180 per car to comply.

On reflection I would suggest you consider also adding "Rotors to conform with BRCA electric board rules". It won't mean anything to beginners but then they won't be changing their rotors.

My only caveat is that I assume Ross will be running a Nosram ISTC or a Pearl (but Craig will probably have that on his 6.5 ) with stock setting - probably 1-4 I can't remember.

But isn't that using static timing? Following the Reuben/Martin thread I am now confused as to whether static timing is allowed or not.

[Reuben]

Pearl settings 1-4 have static timing level 1 aka nothing, after profile 4 it starts increasing the static timing......

running a 6.5 you would be in open touring and can run max software and watch it hit the fence at a awe inspiring speed.

[Reuben]

Yes I agree something needs to be done regarding some of the very powerful magnet motors (Gruapner and x12s). Maybe we need an exclusion list banning particular motors from the class?

[yellowshark]

Ah well I have never been there ie 1-4; so what is the difference betwwen 2 and 4 then if the timing doesn't change,in my ignorance I just assumed it did. Understand the rules now!

Err I wasn't thinking of running the 6. 5 at 1-4 ;D

[darrenoakley]

In theory it sound very fair and I am all for that. But an awful lot of rules/scrutinering to be done at race meeting taking valuable track time from racers and committee alike. Evening racing is tight time wise already and this would just make it shorter.

What about eco speedo/motor in touring car chassis. At least anyone coming from eco would already have the gear to go,and anyone starting from scratch lets face it eco electric's are going to cheap compared to the price of the car and or gen2/3

Just my opinion though ;D