|
|
Post by yellowshark on Dec 5, 2011 13:56:20 GMT
(Have put this here as the AGM thread is meant to be for proposals/secondements not discussion).
Not sure I agree with everything you said, in context, Les. It may well work at Aldershot and it may well be that an A class driver could setup and blow the pants away from a pro eco car at Bashley, but that is not what we are aiming at.
The context is that right now we are very small and we need our experienced drivers to compete in Open TC so that those drivers can get a good race. The other classes are therefore dominated by the less experienced drivers plus a few older members who feel their 19T days, if they ever existed, are over.
The issue is to ensure they get good races too.
We have 4 classes
Open TC ie mod/Pro stock/super stock.
Stock 17.5
All with timing
Pro Eco
Eco
Currently Open TC is the largest class in terms of drivers and can turn out 2 heats.
The other classes are not so well attended, in particular Stock and Eco which only see 2, sometimes 3 drivers, even just 1 driver. E.G one week recently we had two cars from these classes running with Open TC due to low numbers – I hope the guys enjoyed themselves anyway and whilst being mobile chicanes for the Open TC guys it was not a problem as they were on the ball and pulled over as soon as an Open TC car got anywhere close.
The proposal is based around the idea of combining the Eco and Stock classes into a single class with Pro Eco so that we can get fuller grids for these drivers.
Yes potentially you then get an issue about different motors and therefore performance but as I said in another post looking at Ross with 17.5 and James with his Pro Eco there was “no” difference in performance.
Yes somebody new could along with a 17.5 and steal the show; but maybe they should be running 17.5 with timing in open TC and at the end of the day, we are where we are.
As Reuben said it is a proposal – that was discussed at the last Sunday meeting and it is up to the wider membership to either like it or throw it out.
I have deliberately left the point about 15T out of my comments as I have no knowledge of that motor.
|
|
|
|
Post by wessex88 on Dec 6, 2011 10:05:14 GMT
Combining stock eco and pro_eco will not in itself increase numbers,It is more likely to discourage new members and overall see a decline in numbers.The race day mentioned with 2 pro-eco drivers racing in open tc,the same would have happened even if pro-eco ran under the heading of stock.A stock class car is around 6 laps quicker than an eco and even more if the eco is driven by a novice.This will really frustrate stock drivers who will constantly be trying to lap slower cars who don`t always get out of the way.
|
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Dec 6, 2011 13:46:35 GMT
Fair point Paul but if the combined class produces enough drivers to have more than 1 heat then natural selection will tend to overcome real speed differences between outright novices and more experienced novices.
We suffer the same in Open TC especially during qualies when we all have to slow down to get past Reuben ;D
Certainly a potential issue to be discussed at the AGM though
|
|
|
|
Post by wessex88 on Dec 6, 2011 15:12:17 GMT
A combined class will not in itself increase the number of drivers.Th race director as it stands can combine classes to increase the number of drivers in a heat.This can be done now without any need to change the rules.
Stock is suffering at the moment because nobody want`s to run it.
Why not combine stock with open tc?
|
|
|
|
Post by Reuben on Dec 6, 2011 17:13:50 GMT
thats kinda what this proposal does. Current stock is 17.5 boosted or non boosted. with a proposal like this, we would see boosted 17.5 become part of OpenTC, a nice way to move into OpenTC with a 17.5 being able to do 21 laps or high 20 in the right hands. the non-boosted 17.5's (which would do a decent 19 or just into 20 laps is the speed of non-boosted 17.5) with most people averaging 17-19 laps. Ok, what about a side step? Open TC is anything and boosted. Stock is split into F3,F2,F1 (we could even call it Eco, Pro-Eco, Stock  ), but it would run together but split for championship points. Eco - stay as it is Pro-Eco - stay as it is (21 turn ansman limit) Stock - 17.5 non-boosted, upto 15t sealed can, 27t brushed btw I have some 15t firebolt motors here if anyone wants to test one in their car one sunday... |
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Dec 6, 2011 18:00:03 GMT
How many laps do the faster pro Eco drivers normally do?
|
|
|
|
Post by wessex88 on Dec 6, 2011 18:13:02 GMT
thats kinda what this proposal does. Ok, what about a side step? Open TC is anything and boosted. Stock is split into F3,F2,F1 (we could even call it Eco, Pro-Eco, Stock ), but it would run together but split for championship points. Eco - stay as it is Pro-Eco - stay as it is (21 turn ansman limit) Stock - 17.5 non-boosted, upto 15t sealed can, 27t brushed btw I have some 15t firebolt motors here if anyone wants to test one in their car one sunday... Oh just as it`s run at the moment.Except adding 15t sealed can to stock and no boost. pro-eco around 17 to 18 laps 2 people have just scraped a 19 but I have to say that didn`t happen in my heat. What really concerns me is the youngster with an eco doing 14-15 laps and not standing a chance.At least if there is a separate class there is a chance of a class win. |
|
|
|
Post by justchris on Dec 6, 2011 21:30:30 GMT
 Hi all really good to be back. Interesting reading as pete says not sure i agree with every point. Paul does seem to have a point is there any reason why we cant leave things as they are. e.g. rd's discretion as what to race in what class. I propose we increase membership cost by £2.50 (this will allow us to purchase a compressor etc to bring us in line with other clubs) Also when matt s was around there was talk of outdoor mini class so as to attract others from dorset over on a regular bisis Ian L and Terry C have run minis successfully at bash and Jamie ,and Darren O are running mini with others on wednesday. Maybe they could have a go in the spring. What do others think
|
|
|
|
Post by wessex88 on Dec 6, 2011 22:20:20 GMT
(this will allow us to purchase a compressor etc to bring us in line with other clubs) Also when matt s was around there was talk of outdoor mini class so as to attract others from dorset over on a regular bisis Ian L and Terry C have run minis successfully at bash and Jamie ,and Darren O are running mini with others on wednesday. Maybe they could have a go in the spring. What do others think What do You use a compressor for? There is nothing to stop people running mini`s as things stand.We did this on a regular basis a few years ago.It didn`t attract any racers from dorset and just died out in the end. I ended up running mini against the eco`s until I jioned them. |
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Dec 7, 2011 0:11:44 GMT
What really concerns me is the youngster with an eco doing 14-15 laps and not standing a chance.At least if there is a separate class there is a chance of a class win. I have a lot of empathy for your point Paul, how about another twist then - we had the same problem in 27T (as did every other club). How about we take Reuben's proposal and introduce grading. For example At the start of the season, ie based on last season's best time under 16 laps F3 under 18 laps F2 18 laps and over F1 qualies seeded on rating On current drivers it would seem F1 would comprise a number of Pro Eco drivers plus one 17.5 driver, ie Shaun if he runs 17.5 next year + maybe Neil? (sorry Neil I am not sure what lap times you put in on 17.5T non timing) F2 would be a numberof Pro Eco drivers plus one or two 17.5 drivers ie Ross + ? maybe Neil. I have no idea if any Eco drivers would make F2 F3 would be Eco plus any newbies to the sport. Don't forget also that the above structure allows a Stock (in the new proposal) driver to drive a brushless car before taking the step to OpenTC; indeed if they have a 17.5, as against a 21T, all they need to do is either buy a timing speedo, or just switch their current timing speedo on. |
|
ianlloyd
Lapping the Back Markers
Posts: 932
|
Post by ianlloyd on Dec 7, 2011 10:42:45 GMT
I ran the Firebolt 15T motor last Sunday although it was a shame no one else turned up to give it a good comparison test. It does seem to me to be a bit faster than the Ansmann although maybe not a great deal. Certainly seemed punchier but did not have enough time to try too many gear ratios. Running on the same ratio as the Ansmann 21 it was certainly quicker and came off quite cool. I would suspect if it is anything like the Saturn 20T motor it will improve with use. I reckon it is as near as anything I have tried to a good 27T motor from when we were doing stock class.
Personally I would like to see it run as a Pro Eco class to make a step up from Eco but I understand that people want it added to the stock class and that is fair enough. It could be a very competitive class next year.
I agree that Eco should be left alone, it is designed to get new people racing on a budget and that is what it should remain.
|
|
|
|
Post by wessex88 on Dec 7, 2011 13:07:20 GMT
I still don`t see any reason or advantage in combining these 3 classes into 1 as most of the time they run together anyway.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mike V on Dec 11, 2011 23:04:44 GMT
But if they generally run together why not combine them? Surely eventually the idea would be for everyone to run blinky 17.5? £110 would get you the setup...no more buying new brushed motors every time they go flat, no more speed differentials, just down to driver skill....I'd have thought the majority of rtr kits will come complete with brushless next year wouldn't they?
Wouldn't it be best to combine them now in preparation for 2013 when it could be proposed as blinky only, or at least the majority of serious runners would change over.... It's only like the btcc are currently doing with normally aspirated, turbo and ngtc cars...
|
|
|
|
Post by wessex88 on Dec 12, 2011 10:06:14 GMT
But if they generally run together why not combine them? Surely eventually the idea would be for everyone to run blinky 17.5? £110 would get you the setup...no more buying new brushed motors every time they go flat, no more speed differentials, just down to driver skill....I'd have thought the majority of rtr kits will come complete with brushless next year wouldn't they? Wouldn't it be best to combine them now in preparation for 2013 when it could be proposed as blinky only, or at least the majority of serious runners would change over.... It's only like the btcc are currently doing with normally aspirated, turbo and ngtc cars... The majority of our new membership comes because of the eco class.Kill the eco class no new members.Brushless eco class cars are available now at twice the price of brushed.If You think that dropping a brushless system into a eco car will suddenly put it on the pace of a stock class car You are very misguided.If this were the case all open tc cars would be ansmann.Classes are combined at the moment to enable people to race it is not ideal.If You really think it is I`ll stick a newby eco in with the open tc`s next time.As for 2013 that would be the stock class would it not. This is an ill conceived idea proposed without consultation with any drivers that it will affect. |
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Dec 12, 2011 14:22:43 GMT
A few points
1. No-one is suggesting that we no longer run Eco cars
2. I would suggest that no-one, certainly Reuben, thinks that dropping a brushless system into an Eco is going to put Eco on a par with stock.
3. The only point of having Eco is to provide the lowest entry cost possible. If brushless Ecos come on to the market then it is an individual’s decision – do I go for the cheapest and then have to pay more (in total) to move to brushless later
4. If we do not get a thriving Stock class Sunday’s will eventually fold
We used to have a thriving Stock class. It was called 27T and there were in the order of 5 laps different between the top drivers and the beginners. The top drivers apart from being better drivers spent more money on batteries and motors. The slower drivers got a chance to race with and against faster drivers and improved faster because of that.
We then had another thriving Stock class when brushless came in – 17.5. Whilst many other clubs struggled SHMCCC went against the grain, led by Les, and adopted 17.5. Other clubs some 3 years later are seeing the wisdom.
This class was though killed by the advent of timing speedos – which saw a number of drivers at SHMCC adopting Pro Eco.
I suggest at the AGM that if needed we consider a tweak of Reuben’s proposal, if there really is dislike of including Eco into it.
• Leave Eco on its own
• Combine Pro Eco and 17.5 into one stock class
• Make 17.5 non timing
• Allow Pro Eco drivers to run 15T
Stock is the entry route to what we call Open TC. If we do not get people progressing through then Open TC will eventually die, by and large that is where the expertise sits to help inexperienced drivers improve, the outdoor section of the club will fold.
|
|
|
|
Post by wessex88 on Dec 12, 2011 15:10:44 GMT
Combine Pro Eco and 17.5 into one stock class
Why?
Ok alter stock to bring it into line with what is going to happen nationally.I see there is a natural progression from eco to pro-eco and then to stock.So why combine classes?
Will the national stock class include brushed motors? I think not.
|
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Dec 12, 2011 15:22:35 GMT
I give up.
I was hoping that Ross would be able to race at Bashley next year rather than Aldershot, with that short sighted attitude it is clear he will not have anyone to race against. And that will be one less Open TC driver as well.
So you loose one national Junior champion and one potential national Junior champion - sure is the way to run a club and attract future members
|
|
|
|
Post by wessex88 on Dec 12, 2011 15:28:56 GMT
I was going to race pro-eco next year but it would appear it will have to be mini at another club.Good bye one race director.Very little racing on a sunday.
This is a personal piont of view and nothing to do with the running of the club.If this gets voted in I will make my own decission as what to run and where.
|
|
|
|
Post by justchris on Dec 12, 2011 16:27:31 GMT
Surely it would be best all round to leave things as they are we have lost several members all ready.
|
|
ianlloyd
Lapping the Back Markers
Posts: 932
|
Post by ianlloyd on Dec 12, 2011 17:15:11 GMT
Oh I think stock and pro eco should run together. Stock should go clockwise and pro eco anti-clockwise......
Guess I'm not taking this seriously enough.
|
|
|
|
Post by issac on Dec 12, 2011 17:19:41 GMT
it saddens me to see this club folding in on itself like it appears to be on this forum
i know i don't race at the club now ( and i have my reasons for that which i shall not go into at the moment ) but having spent a while helping to run the club in the past i thought it might help with a insight of how things used to run.
Bashley was at its best with 2 classes ( 27t and 19 t ), the bigger clubs ( aldershot, west london etc ) have a large catchment area with which to attract new members and are not limited by the sea one side and a national park the other. the 19t was one class and the 27t was split F1 F2 F3. you started in F3 with the top 3 drivers at the end of the current championship ( with enough rounds completed ) being moved to F2 for the next championship and so on, this meant you raced against people of the same ability and had something to aim for. I don't see this happening now and when you have more classes you dilute the membership. why bother to race in a class of one person. even if you combine classes its still a class of one for a championship.
Now other clubs have amended the system and use the F1 etc with set laps say F3 upto 16 laps and then move to F2 for the next championship and so on. the big clubs dont have a lot of classes 10.5, 13.5 and a sport or beginners class ( prob 17.5 with 15t brushed ) if you don't include bikes and gt/f1, so for example for approx 70+ members aldershot has 3 touring car classes bashley has 4 with a smaller membership. too many classes and not enough drivers to run them.
|
|
|
|
Post by darrenoakley on Dec 12, 2011 23:05:22 GMT
I have to agree with Pete and Ian Newton on this one. It is clear that the club is not going to change in order to progress and thats why I wont be at the AGM on wed and probably wont be racing at the club in the new year.
|
|
|
|
Post by Reuben on Dec 12, 2011 23:31:48 GMT
I will be racing all next year outside in whatever class I can. Preferably OpenTC
I would like to add, that I like this club a lot and would say in regards to sundays I am regular - I will not see it go down the drain...
And I bet all other core members all feel the same - I have a image of an Ostrich again....
I do not want to travel an 50 miles to the next nearest club every sunday...
So lets talk about this at the AGM, sort whats right for the club and its current members (indoors and outdoors) and give people classes that are raced, straight forward and act as a stepping stone.
My view is that we need a blinky brushless class as an option to encourage OpenTC drivers to drop down to a slower, less stressful and fun close racing class. sure we could all just run slower motors in OpenTC, but wouldnt it be great to have 20-30 people all there running against each other in the same class? Getting into the A would be a real acheivement and not an expectation. We also need a cheap class for the new and more casual racer. My personal view is buy right - buy once and if I was starting again, I would not bother with a RTR chassis. I would be looking for a resonably well paced and attended pro-chassis class, something that would last me a year or two, not 6 months
Cant easily fit a brushed sealed can to an Xray - doesnt fit well
this is no dig at anyone in particular - but this needs sorting, finalising and putting to bed ASAP
|
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Dec 13, 2011 1:45:47 GMT
Some data for consideration on Wednesday.
Ordinary club day results not on the website; but for RRC and club championship which I am sure are representative.
Number of drivers to complete number of rounds to count
RRC Club champ
Eco 1 0
Pro eco 5 0
Stock 2 0
Open 6 4
(sorry the columns are all lined up in the editor but...)
These say it all really. The best supported class is Open. There will always be natural attrition so where are the replacements going to come from if drivers from Pro Eco do no eventually move up; we must have a class structure that makes this viable and encouraging. They of course will be replaced by all the new club members coming into Eco – now there is a fallacy if ever I saw one!!!
I do recognise though that James and Robert are very regular.
As I have tried to impress in my postings, leaving things as they are and not trying something is not an option.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave Chamberlain on Dec 13, 2011 7:52:34 GMT
Well I wasn't going to comment on this thread... However all of the talk about the club imploding, not willing to change, people not racing or attending the AGM really needs to stop... Sure discuss all you guys want on here but I must remind everyone that we are a CLUB and everyone who is a member has the right to make proposals, second proposals and vote on them at the AGM.. The committee are totally guided my YOU the members - NO decisions have been made about class structure next year and won't be until tomorrow night.. If you don't come along and vote on the proposals as published that fine, but you're not using your chance to direct the culb in the best direction.. As for the AGM, there is alot of talk re disscussing classes etc.. While debate is very important and must occur. The time to propose is now closed and we must vote on the proposals that have been seconded.. Judging by the high emotions running on this thread the debate at the AGM runs the risk of taking over the whole evening.. Something I would like to avoid becasue I'd like to actually get some racing in Can someone please pick up all of the dollies and dummies and put them back in the pram |
|
ianlloyd
Lapping the Back Markers
Posts: 932
|
Post by ianlloyd on Dec 13, 2011 8:21:55 GMT
I will be there! I might not agree with everything that is being discussed here but the AGM is where we will sort it all out. Not turning up is being an Ostrich!
|
|
|
|
Post by darrenoakley on Dec 13, 2011 8:27:40 GMT
The other reason I won't be there is that I don't think I have the patients to put up with comments like that Ian. Think it's time you changed the record . |
|
|
|
Post by miffed on Dec 13, 2011 8:46:21 GMT
I suggest at the AGM that if needed we consider a tweak of Reuben’s proposal, if there really is dislike of including Eco into it. • Leave Eco on its own • Combine Pro Eco and 17.5 into one stock class • Make 17.5 non timing • Allow Pro Eco drivers to run 15T Stock is the entry route to what we call Open TC. If we do not get people progressing through then Open TC will eventually die, by and large that is where the expertise sits to help inexperienced drivers improve, the outdoor section of the club will fold. Is'nt this and "one or two others peoples resent thoughts"what Ive been suggesting all this time  Opening up the pro-eco rules will renew an interest!..its something different to experiment with,swap info,enjoy and importantly have fun with!!.....The17.5 blinky/15t limit with any chassis (including mini's) run with any shells is fun to watch let alone race in.....Forget complicating maters with F1,F2 etc etc there's no point,IF NECESSARY the heats can be graded by the chassis used so it shouldn't stop a Mini or RTR driver joining in the fun or even dropping in a 17.5 or 15t should they feel the need too........Its supposed to be a fun class, but!! also a steeping stone to the faster classes should a newby want to learn. The current pro-eco class is fun but IMHO it does need "pepping up" with "a little more speed" for the more experianced driver. Just my thoughts: A 10th class where the only limiting factor is the motors (17.5 blinky/15t) should please all including the serious racer who just wants a "fun day out" with his 1999 Schuy or Mini .....No doubt someone will have a moan that X is faster than Y but if you are one of theses people then you are missing the point of a class like this. |
|
ianlloyd
Lapping the Back Markers
Posts: 932
|
Post by ianlloyd on Dec 13, 2011 9:00:23 GMT
Sorry you feel like that Darren I was certainly not being personal to you but I have heard several people who say they will not be attending and to me that is wrong. To have a proper discussion on what is best for the club needs everyone to turn up as all sides of the argument need to be heard.
Obviously my opinions do not count as I am not really a regular. On that basis it may be better if I stay out of this.
Apologies Darren there was no intention to upset anyone.
|
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Dec 13, 2011 9:58:42 GMT
Ian you should be there. I will be there, it is my club and I am not going to let it slip away without doing everything I can. It is your club too and whether or not you are a regular at the moment, you pay your membership, have supported the club for along time and have the right to articulate your views, as much as we have a right to insist you give them to us!
OK if there is an issue you feel you do not want to vote on because it does not affect you then fine, but we would all benefit from your views.
|
|
), but it would run together but split for championship points.
