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Post by Robin Howett on Jun 20, 2008 13:31:44 GMT
As brushed stock motors rumble through the year and i hear of new racers buying lathes to skim motors should we/not allow 17.5 brushless in the stock class at SHMCC club meetings?
Its still new and only Ian Loyd has run 17.5 but he managed 17 laps which to my mind is more in 'stock' lap times rather than the 20 laps obtained by the 13.5 powered cars of Gray and Barry.
This is only an opinion poll, so whats yours?
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Post by lesbaldry on Jun 20, 2008 14:23:40 GMT
Yes/prehaps as long as the17.5 sintered motor performs as well as a good "off the shelf " 27t...I have been playing with a sealed Can 15.5 bonded and found it to be lacking!..mid to high 16 second laps , a good full second plus off my normal stock pace.Ian Newton and myself are waiting for some 17.5s to arrive for testing so proof will be in the lap times also to run door to door with a 27t driver with the same ability..Its a gamble and I hope they work but my gut tells me prehaps 15.5 sintered is the new Co27??
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geoffg
Hitting the Tyre
SHMCC Club Member
Posts: 78
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Post by geoffg on Jun 20, 2008 15:10:45 GMT
Hi All
Geoff Garland here - Went to Lesro 2day to find out about 17.5 brushless. Daryl has LRP Vector 17.5s in stock and can get them no problem. Just thought id let you all know.
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Post by Simon Crabb on Jun 20, 2008 15:48:45 GMT
Hi All Geoff Garland here - Went to Lesro 2day to find out about 17.5 brushless. Daryl has LRP Vector 17.5s in stock and can get them no problem. Just thought id let you all know. Who said they were impossible to get hold of? ;D |
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Post by Robin Howett on Jun 20, 2008 16:09:56 GMT
Yes/prehaps as long as the17.5 sintered motor performs as well as a good "off the shelf " 27t...I have been playing with a sealed Can 15.5 bonded and found it to be lacking!..mid to high 16 second laps , a good full second plus off my normal stock pace.Ian Newton and myself are waiting for some 17.5s to arrive for testing so proof will be in the lap times also to run door to door with a 27t driver with the same ability..Its a gamble and I hope they work but my gut tells me prehaps 15.5 sintered is the new Co27?? Les, would it not be a good idea to try and slow down 'stock' as it is still the 'newbie' entry class rather than speed it up. Better speed matched cars = better racing (to nick your Sig line) There will always be differences between manufacturers motors but you have to admit that the 13.5 is no 'stock' and after a years development I'm sure the 15.5 will be faster than most 'stocks' and Lipo's will get better and better. If we go 17.5 and all the newbies we're getting (great  can go brushless without killing there cars or others around them as they get into racing and it saves them the pain of brushed motors surley this is the way to go. |
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Post by yellowshark on Jun 20, 2008 17:49:10 GMT
Rob, that sounds like one to debate over a beer.  But in the lack of one right now my initial gut reaction is a resounding NO. 27T is too fast for Ross. Problem eh? Not at all; you just go to your transmitter and turn down the throttle EPA. It does not take too much intelligence. If we had a hand out of tips etc for newbies, that could go straight to the top of the page - along with a preface that doing well in a race is all about staying on the track. I dont think the likes of Keith and Adam (newbies this year?) let alone Dan Simon and Craig would too impressed if we slowed it down! And yes from that perspective I think the decision to exclude 13.5 was the right one, they are too fast - ie they create just too much of a differential across the racers in Stock. I am up for giving 17.5 a go. I think one can assume that ROAR came to that decison on the basis of some trials. We should do our own trials first though. So why not let Ian run with his 17.5 for a few meetings and see what his feeedback is. It will not make any differnce to us as we will be running 27T this year and probably next year. But it makes a whole lot of sense for newbies who have not yet invested any money to go straight to brushless - that is compatible with 27T. I still remain agog that the BRCA sat on the fence on this one, so short sighted. |
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Post by Simon Crabb on Jun 20, 2008 18:05:31 GMT
Nice idea Pete, but lots of newbie radios don't have End Point Adjustment...
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Post by saintroeer on Jun 20, 2008 18:25:44 GMT
i think you are right to say that we wouldnt want to slow down anymore pete, weve set times and targets that we are striving to achieve. with respect to new people entering the club they would only judge speed relative to what they are racing against.
this maybe one of those situations where you cant please everyone, our numbers are too small to cater for all skill levels. if we can establish a brushless motor that is comparable to a good 27t i think thats the best start.
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Post by issac on Jun 20, 2008 20:46:18 GMT
rob
the only 15.5's on the market that i have seen are the lrp and nosram bonded ones( i have tested a 15.5 nosram one and it blew up after 4 laps at recomended gearing).
as its 13.5 for stock here and 17.5 in the usa then i feel that the 15.5 motors will not be developed any more after all the companies will go for the approved markets.
we all agree the 13.5 is too quick at our track ( not so at others ) and if the next one down ( thats reliable) is the 17.5 then thats the one we allow. after all at the agm we allowed 15.5 in stock so why not 17.5.
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Post by yellowshark on Jun 21, 2008 7:50:03 GMT
...after all at the agm we allowed 15.5 in stock so why not 17.5. Ian has a very valid point  |
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Post by yellowshark on Jun 21, 2008 7:54:16 GMT
Nice idea Pete, but lots of newbie radios don't have End Point Adjustment... Shoot, Campbell has FITTOA. Even Ross' old cheapo Futaba had EPA, I thought...  |
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Post by ukcmf on Jun 21, 2008 7:58:49 GMT
after all at the agm we allowed 15.5 in stock so why not 17.5. Umm I dont remember that - I thought at the last AGM ALL brushless had to go in with the 19T as to us brushless was an unknown entity. Have checked the AGM minutes and they appear to agree with my recollection. However what will be agreed at this years AGM will be another thing all together. Col |
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Post by Darren Knight on Jun 21, 2008 9:55:45 GMT
I would agree with col as i think that all brushless should go in there own class, if they were put in with us brushed guys they would be quicker and it wouldnt give us lot a fair chance to get a trophy for the series.
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Post by Chris N on Jun 21, 2008 20:36:48 GMT
I have a just got a Novak 17.5 which I plan to run at tomorrow's SLCC at Yeovil. One thing that has to be bourne in mind is that they dont like water!
At the practice day today Simon and I didnt get a chance to try out our shiny new brushless kit as the rain was going sideways and the track was wet for most of the day. We ran our old cars with brushed motors and even they were playing up.
Does this mean that like NASCAR racing in the USA that if there is any rain we all have to stop and run for cover?
I think there should be a combination of both BL and BR. It appears 17.5 will probably be the one to go for if using brushless but for a newbie...a standard 27t, even if you dont skim the com every meeting (as we dont) is still fast enough to get some good racing laps in and hence experience.
An ESC that can handle BR and BL is the important thing right now. once you have one of those you get the choice of motors...but they tend to be expensive.
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Post by yellowshark on Jun 22, 2008 14:05:05 GMT
I have a just got a Novak 17.5 which I plan to run at tomorrow's SLCC at Yeovil. An ESC that can handle BR and BL is the important thing right now. What ESC did you go for Chris? |
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Post by lesbaldry on Jun 23, 2008 7:41:24 GMT
My only concern Rob was that if we were to alow 17.5s to run along side 27t is that they were to be compedative other wise it would be a waste of time for some one like my self to buy one ...yes lets keep stock level to a sensible speed buts lets all of us have the chance to buy/run equal power...theres no point in a new racer buying a 17.5 then getting quick "like Matt" and finding out he cant catch a experianced driver with a tweaked 27t.
PS going by Mr Lloydes 17.5 at Yeovil my doubts in there performance has been squashed,they apeared to be a good fair match for a 27t...Lets give them a try please,I for one will give the club the correct feed back should we test them.
As for 17.5 speed for the youngsters,because of a BLs low revs and high torque keeping the gearing low to reduce speed does not increase the punch uncontrolably like a brushed,Infact gear a BL low and they become extreamly dull of the line,smooth and have VERY poor top end,ideal for a young driver "EPA's not needed "I noticed this when I first run them and it confused the hell out of me !! oddly enough gear a BL high and it gains punch!!they have a totaly different power delivery.
I would like to run stock class brushless at club meets for reasons we have already debated but it MUST be a "fair" motor..
If someone like Mr Ian "wise old owl" Lloyde gives his seal of approval to the 17.5 thats good enough for me!
If the club wants an entry level class "to keep it slow"then there is only one motor,a 540 sport tuned! in a seperate heat??not enough numbers!!or in wth the present stocks to get blown away?? ...or do we gag Rossy,fit a 540 to his car and turn up the EPA's!!(tounge in cheek comment Pete LoL)
As for Darrens comment,this is what we are trying to sort out old chap!!....But think of this running 27t stock is probably one of the most expensive class's to be compedative in...My doubt is/was if the 17.5 is going to be as fast as a good 27t??
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Post by yellowshark on Jun 23, 2008 15:23:21 GMT
;)Les. In fact the pendulum swung the other way at the RRC where Ross was taken out a fair few more times that the reverse. And I only heard one "Oi" when he was taken out after the 2nd turn, stuck on the grass and the marshall put him back on the straight! I think an "Oi" was justified - mind you there was money at stake ;D
It seems to me that for newbies, going straight to brushless would make life a lot easier, although I do not know what the comparative intitial cost is, prohibitive? So if there is equality with 17.5 it gets my vote. As I said before we will be sticking with 27T because of the investment we have made plus I enjoy the black art of tuning. No doubt when I get old and slow down I won't have the time ;D
I hope though we wont be stopping the racing just because a bit of rain comes down during the proceedngs.
Let's let Ian Chris and Simon try them out over the next few months and if they are happy put a proposal into the AGM. Mind you you also get into the cycle of what are the BRCA, STCC,SLCC,BTCC etc going to do. I see that the KO grandprix, along with the BRCA and BTCC has separate 27T class so I think we may wll be venturing up to Uxbridge in August!
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Post by lesbaldry on Jun 24, 2008 7:03:36 GMT
My 17.5 has arrived so I'll be giving it a test on wed's meeting,hopefully it'll prove to be good but only lap times will tell,the FDR's for these motors are not the norm, around 3.7:1 due to the torque and there maybe a few spur to pinion meshing probs with some cars unless your cars transmition FDR is below 1.9:1?
befor anyone rushes out to buy one just make sure your car can make these odd "Calshot" type ratios..some chassis makes now offer as a hop up different pullys for the BL ratios
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Post by lesbaldry on Jun 26, 2008 7:02:02 GMT
Two 17.5s were tested last night the LRP and the Speed Passion,
both motors proved to be very equal and have the speed of any "of the shelf,none tweaked" 27t,my feeling is that they have no advantage in "speed/power" over a brushed,and prehaps a tweaked 27t "if you have the know how" will be slightly faster??..but for ease of use and instant off the shelf power they are very good!
Other makes may be in the pipe line? but out of the two at the moment the Speed Passion may be the easiest to use as it's the revy'ist of the two allowing you to get FDR's easy,around 4.5 compared to the LRP's 3.6
They both are very smooth and very easy to drive and I feel will be a good entry level brushless for the club to run along side 27t's??..A agro free pleasure to run!!
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Post by yellowshark on Jun 26, 2008 21:32:54 GMT
Hi Les, this is a subject I have zero knowledge on so no shooting the messenger ;D. I was reading a Racechat thread this evening on adjusting the timing on brushless motors. There was a comment that this is easily done via the ESC software and therefore a question as to whether there was a place for them in Stock as this is meant to be standard spec.
Is this true?
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Post by lesbaldry on Jun 27, 2008 7:57:19 GMT
No idea Pete,no doubt some smarty has found a way to "legal tweak" them!...thats racing! someone will always find away no mater what we use?!?!  ...besides timing can be altered on a brushed motor too  |
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Post by lesbaldry on Jun 27, 2008 12:49:28 GMT
Pete if it's Pc programable speedos you are refering too ,simple ,If the club alow 17.5s then ban them,besides I think only Rob has one in the club and they are the size if a small shoe box.
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Post by yellowshark on Jun 27, 2008 13:20:36 GMT
Pete if it's Pc programable speedos you are refering too ,simple ,If the club alow 17.5s then ban them,besides I think only Rob has one in the club and they are the size if a small shoe box. No its not Les. I have a programmable speedo and all the software and kit etc. It does not change the timing in the engine. It changes the profile of the delivery of the charge to the engine - ie as per most people have except you use buttons on the ESC. Thsis is the same thing just more tuneable/sophisticated. |
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can go brushless without killing there cars or others around them as they get into racing and it saves them the pain of brushed motors surley this is the way to go.
But in the lack of one right now my initial gut reaction is a resounding NO.
...besides timing can be altered on a brushed motor too 