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Post by number1dan on Jun 26, 2008 21:55:03 GMT
im not complaining or anything but if 10.5 is equivalent to 19T then y were peole impressed that a brushed motor did well in the A final, surely thats to be expected isnt it, i mean if they are equivalent then wots the big deal. hence due to general mentallity that 19T is now inferior i put to you that 10.5 is not equivalent to 19T and therefore shouldnt be put in the same class. i also dont think any brushless should be in the same class because 13.5 is "equivalent" to a brushed stock, but a jay westwood stock motor,and even jay westwood motors lose performance whereas brushless doesnt at all. think of it like this, a straight line on a performance chart showing the power of brushless and another more zigzaggy line showing the performance of brushed motors and every now and again a top of the range skimmed brushed zapped etc motor will touch that brushless line at its peak but not often enough to call it fair. now some of you are probably saying that 17.5 is the fairer motor, but its not because you can tweak and change things on a brushed motor to make it better and more powerful, whereas the 17.5 will always be mediocre and cant be made better and therefore wont stand a chance against top brushed racers so thats not fair either. i think the most important factor in racing is the zigzaggy part, the ability to discover new highs and boundarys without having an unfair advantage, to be able to crank it up a notch for that last final and to show people that its not stupid 10.5 speeds that wins trophies, its being consistent with a brushed motor that u no u can get that little bit more out of it by changing summin like brush springs and your friends hu have the same car and same motor etc dont have your speeds and its your little secret y not... well thats all i hav to say for now
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Post by lesbaldry on Jun 27, 2008 6:55:24 GMT
Nice thoughts Dan and I see some of your points and as far as brushed motors go a person with the know how and the deep pocket to aford to implement the "know how" will always have a faster motor....Put it this way! two equal ability drivers with brushed motors race all year in a series and the guy with the "know how and deep pocket" wins easily due to power,how do you think the other guy feels?....with brushless we can all buy the same/similar power off the shelf and one motor should last a driver a season,not two or three with umpteen hours spent with ,laythes,dynos.zappers and ten sets of £10 brushes ....I for one have a little "know how " to make a brushed motor go and prehaps premoting the use of brushless is loosing my slight advantage,BUT Im all for a level playing field!!!! one brushless one FDR,no maintainance,fit it, forget it and race
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Post by Mark Townsend on Jun 27, 2008 8:12:26 GMT
I think the 10.5 is very nearly equivalent to a 19T. But as you say the performance doesn't drop off towards the end of the race. From the results at Yateley I know the guys that beat me would have done so running BR or BL so I reckon they're pretty equivalent. The biggest drawback to BL is the effect on the BR expertise. Having picked up bits of knowledge on BR motors over the past 25 years I think it's a real shame that black art of tuning is disappearing. On the plus side you 'll have more time to focus on the blacker art of setting the car up. At Yateley I was crazy busy skimming and rebrushing the motor I had very little time for maintenance or set up, whereas Rob was laid back and tinkering to his hearts content. Now I have a BL system i'm looking forward to constant motor and battery performance throughout the race (and season?) and focusing on the driving. Don't forget Dan you also have an excellent race engineer who sorts out the car leaving you to do the driving round the track. In fact Derek is like having your own BL system already. Do you even know what a brush looks like? As for 17.5 in stock, time will tell. Keep an eye on Les and the Ian's to see how they get on and how close they are to 'normal' 27T times. Mark
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Post by yellowshark on Jun 27, 2008 8:17:49 GMT
Interesting stuff, on both counts. But I think I probably fall more on Dan's side – because this is motor racing (isn't it?). Motor racing is not just about driver performance, it is also about race preparation, strategy etc.
1:1 scale club racing - levels the financial playing field. Standard motors, maybe blueprinting allowed. Moreso FIA spec club racing which will certainly put strict controls on what can and cannot be changed on the car - with scrutineering to match. That leaves you with reading and understanding the track and conditions, with setup to focus on.
If we take Les's brushless point further, then why should Geubes be allowed to spend his 280 pounds and get that superior chassis I mentioned when others can only afford 200 pounds and get an inferior chassis? Why should someone get an advantage because they know how to set a car up and/or can afford the extra equipment to get accurate rather than "just about" setups?
Why don’t we run with an SHMCC control tyre, 1 set per meeting or 2 meetings?
It seems to me that there are two options/scenarios. We either focus and want just driver capability. In which case we need same engine, same tyres, same chassis that is not tunable, etc etc
Or something that mimics real motor racing more accurately. In terms of “fairness”, however you interpret that word in this context, the first of course is easy, the second less so.
Why should the likes of Les or Mark be penalised by not being allowed to benefit from their years of experience, and no doubt 100's of hours of effort to learn things?
Why should Les be allowed to benefit from his experience and ability to create a free running drive train?
Why should Rob be allowed to benefit from his understanding of suspension geometry and its practical application?
So do we want a take it out of the box on Sunday morning, race, put it back in the box, get it out next Sunday morning, etc. experience? Or one where maintenance, tuning, setup for particular tracks and conditions contribute to the whole? Both have their place.
I know virtually nothing about engine tuning. Were it not for the brushless revolution I would probably over the next two years make the effort to learn a lot. Do I think that, within the rules, it is unfair that Les can turn out an engine that whops us? Certainly not. That's his reward for his efforts. And apart from a real dyno (never seen one, no idea where to get one, assume I can’t afford one), engine tuning does not actually need deep pockets it seems to me. I guess I have always been confused over why there is this view on "unfair advantage" over engine tuning but nothing else. I suspect if your pockets were deep enough to afford 6 new sets of tyres every race meeting you would be doing rather well! Nobody comments about that.
As I said, interesting subject. No doubt there will other different views. ;D
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Post by mattsedgley on Jun 27, 2008 8:42:46 GMT
Agreed, this is an interesting subject. - From the "Newbie" point of view i can see the advantages of the Brushless system - at present I have to speak very nicely to Mr Loyd/Baldry when my motor needs some TLC -
With a brushless system skimming etc wouldn't be required which would save me a lot of time - the money I feel is comparable - if you have say a couple of stock motors per year at £30 each plus brushes for the year at say £40 and a com lathe my total would be around about £150 which is in the ball park of a Brushless Setup - which needs little setup/maintenance - not to mention word on the street is that waterproof brushless gear will be out in a month or so - again removing motor issues that I found at Yeovil.
Taking Yeovil as an example I didn't win my race on straight line speed, I won on carrying it into the corners and attempting to be consistent, and following a racing line (something I'm lacking at Bashley at present) Dan you have that already; your lines are good, really good - infact I learnt a lot about the track from watching you and the lines you took.
from my point of view - I'd say that 17.5 should be allowed in with stock as it seems to be comparable on speed - I'm sure the Tamiya mini guys can agree, its great fun when everyone has roughly the same motor. (to be cont (Doctors app))
I find the zigzaggy line you talk about can be effected by many other things also - so many infact that a newbie like me can easily get lost/disillusioned in TCs
I for one doubt i'll buy 17.5 brushless until its confirmed by BRCA/SLCC/SHMCC/mybankmanager - if all four of those parties agree that 17.5 should be a class then i'll be there in a second - Matt
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Post by lesbaldry on Jun 27, 2008 8:49:37 GMT
Pete all of us are right, all of us are wrong, thats racing and that what makes it interesting and draws us too it!! debating is fun, our own opinions somtimes fustrate others....Look at us now/today,we're debating points as if the future of racing depended upon it .....Just my view on this as I see "the funny side of our hobby" ;D ;D...Thats why we love it!!...Blue still sucks! ..Black/silver's might be starting too as well..see PM Pete. On a serious note..One thing do'es wind ME up is when a new racer gets a bum steer from retailer's/other racer's..luckily enough this club has a wealth of Know how between us and we help each other...quite rare in some clubs!! I love a good wind up..sorry debate!..pistols at dawn any one ;D PS...GOOD LUCK TO ALL ON SUNDAY....go get em BASHLEY
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Post by yellowshark on Jun 27, 2008 9:37:21 GMT
Les have replied to your PM. Also, I didn't mention this, but I replaced all the cable ties with black ones to match the all black cables, could solve your problem
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Post by issac on Jun 27, 2008 11:25:21 GMT
in the brushless debate one fact has been forgotton
brushed motors have had ? years of development and are prob now at the peak of performance. brushless motors have only scratched the surface and the lrp 17.5 lists it as a second generation motor ( how far could they be developed ). it may work out that a 17.5 is slightly slower than a 27 turn but as its development comes along it may even out. I for one dont mind being slightly slower with the tradeoff of the lack of maintenance. To exclude brushless completely could reduce the membership of the club, its about finding a compatable motor for the stock class.
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Post by Mark Townsend on Jun 27, 2008 12:12:40 GMT
Is there a brushless equivalent Sport Tuned motor. I'd like to run in my mini with a lipo pack. Seriously just let the boys who have 17.5s run with stock and see how they fare. If BR have the advantage then split them into F1/F2 classes. No club has enough drivers to run all the various combinations of lipo/nimh, BL/BR. So allow the 17.5s in stock anything else goes in prostock. That's what was decided at the AGM which was before the 17.5 had even appeared. Now they've arrived they need to be fitted in somewhere. The 17.5s I raced against on Wednesday were nowhere near quick enough to be in the prostock. So simple answer drop them down a class. If in the future there's a massive discrepancy in performance split them further depending on numbers. Just don't fall into the trap of 25 classes for 25 drivers. Everyone's a winner but no competition. 2 classes, a quick one and a slower one. Be it 19 and 27 or 10.5 and 17.5. At the end of the day someone will always be quicker than you because they know something you don't or are just a generally better driver, even though they have the same equipment as you.
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Post by lesbaldry on Jun 27, 2008 13:06:38 GMT
Please lets not get paranoid about 17.5s,they have got to be tested fully yet,and the guys who are testing them do not want to take any points away from anyone..I bet those who are will disregard the points for the sake of testing..and they DO need testing in race conditions.....personaly I think they will be slightly slower than a very good stock!....We DO need an entry level fair BL agro free motor to use in the club at stock level.
From my point of veiw, I want to run stock at club meets but I have no intention to replace my 27t's when they wear out,so who would I run with if no other 10.5 drivers turn up...I think one or two others feel in a similar way .
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Post by ukcmf on Jun 27, 2008 13:07:53 GMT
. So allow the 17.5s in stock anything else goes in prostock. That's what was decided at the AGM which was before the 17.5 had even appeared. The minutes and my memory of the AGM states that any brushless goes in with the pro-stock class and should anyone turn up with a slower motor we'd play it by ear. I think the committee need to have a full and frank discussion at Tuesdays meeting and then either make a decision to be upheld until this years AGM or put forward a couple of recommendations for the whole club to vote on - not just the ones that use this forum. Col
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Post by yellowshark on Jun 27, 2008 13:12:44 GMT
it may work out that a 17.5 is slightly slower than a 27 turn but as its development comes along it may even out. I for one dont mind being slightly slower with the tradeoff of the lack of maintenance. To exclude brushless completely could reduce the membership of the club, its about finding a compatable motor for the stock class.[/quote] I think Ian's final sentence is spot on. We are not big enough to run two classes in stock, so we have to try and accomodate brushless. One of the core problems we have though is that we seem to have zero steer from our governing body on this. Maybe it would help if Mark could have a chat with some of his chairman colleagues for current views. EG WLRC allowed brushless last year. So there must have been a keenness. But based on their experience they went back to brushed at their last AGM. I wonder what their thinking is today at this stage of the season; are they looking at 17.5? What does Terry advise his customers? 1. Your cheapest option is £60; £30 for 27T motor and £30 Viper ESC 2. Your next option is £60 +X for 17.5 and brushless ESC. But it will be maintenance free and thus reducing costs. You wont be as fast as a 27T but for a beginner that is not a problem 3. This option is £60 +x+Y. This gives you an ESC which runs brushed motors too. So as you progress you can spend £30 and upgrade to a 27T. Also as get even better you can move to prostock and get a 10.5 without spending out on another ESC; ahem. No idea where this leaves all the 13.5s Just a nightmare. It seems to me that the only way to do this if for the BRCA to get together with ROAR and IFRA(or whatever) and other bodies and drive out a result that says starting 1.1.2010 the class rules will be.... That gives manufacturers time to get their act together, people like us a chance to plan our expenditure and committees the chance to decide on an environment which will only last a year and knowing that some people will be peed off during the transition. And yes in the interim there will be some difficult decisions. Of course this should have already happened and we should be looking forward towards 1.1.09 But that is not happening and today is today. We also need to consider that last year we had 8 people enter the SLCC at Eastbourne. This year we had 14 at Yateley and 19 at Yeovil. So who do our new drivers, kids like Ross, guys who do not have the time or the money to compete away, race against for 6 weeks out of the summer when 3/4 of the active members are missing? I am in danger of meandering off topic here and am running out of time. I think where I am trying to go is that whatever solution we come up with it has to be cheap, simple (unlike my options above) and value for money ie you have spent all this money to race, you want to race. Unless we tick all these boxes we will struggle. And yes Ian maybe we should just take the plunge and tick 17.5 - but do you really want to be slower ;D ;D
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Post by ukcmf on Jun 27, 2008 13:37:33 GMT
Maybe it would help if Mark could have a chat with some of his chairman colleagues for current views. Pete, Unfortunatley Mark isnt our Club Chairman anymore and hasnt been for sometime. Another one of the items up for discussion at the committee meeting on Tuesday. Col
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Post by Mark Townsend on Jun 27, 2008 13:50:34 GMT
One further point to your comments about the SLCC. I find we have a great fun atmosphere at the SLCC as team South Hants and I think that encourages everyone to come back racing the next week back home. We also had 10 drivers turn up for a Bashley race meeting the same weekend as Yateley, but because no-one was willing to do race control we couldn't hold a meeting. There's only a finite number of people who are willing to help out with race control and fair play to them. It's generally a thankless task and the focal point of everyone's woes. Wrong crystal, my transponder isn't counting, where are my lap times, did I improve, the list goes on. Back to the point I feel that a few away days to the SLCC or the STCC, helps the morale of the members and helps you see how you compare against drivers from other clubs. Plus it's actually only 5 away days as one round is ours. Pete has a very valid point with the lack of direction from on high (BRCA) without them setting some workable classes for club drivers we, the clubs. will always struggle. They have dithered about over lipo and BL in all classes and now need to make a firm decision for 2009. As with most of our country's governing bodies they'll follow the lead of the Yanks which probably means 17.5 as the new stock/ feeder class. The 27s may well be quicker to start with but as technology develops the 17.5 will soon catch up, and in the meantime it makes a perfect choice for Jonny Newpants to buy a decent BL speedo a 17.5 and then focus on zero (electrical) maintenance and week after week of fun racing at our local club. Looking at some posts in the states and a few ads lots of new RTR cars are being shipped with BL systems and Lipos (not necessarily TCs but lot sof off roady stuff), 1/8 scale cars have a myriad of conversions to run BL and Lipo. Like it or not BR is old technology and will be superseded by BL pretty soon. It's a painful transition period on the wallet that's for sure. Long term benefit? Definitely.
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Post by lesbaldry on Jun 27, 2008 13:58:54 GMT
[quote Just don't fall into the trap of 25 classes for 25 drivers. Everyone's a winner but no competition. 2 classes, a quick one and a slower one. Be it 19 and 27 or 10.5 and 17.5. At the end of the day someone will always be quicker than you because they know something you don't or are just a generally better driver, even though they have the same equipment as you. [/quote] I dont know if ther are some worries behind the scenes but Marks comment is spot on......any one want to buy a 17.5
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Post by Reuben on Jun 29, 2008 18:18:35 GMT
after today and current blur of where brushless fits in. I feel like edging towards getting a 13.5 brushless combo and running stock in slcc and also pickup at 17.5 for club racing. the full lot would cost about £160 for speedo, 17.5 and 13.5. That would last me 2 years... = £80 a year or £6.66 a month..... now tell me brushes dont cost more than that a month. Even if that package only lasts a year, its still only £13 a month........ to me it seems like a no-brainer
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Post by issac on Jun 29, 2008 18:36:35 GMT
don't forget thats at uk prices. if you go overseas then savings are to be found
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Post by yellowshark on Jun 29, 2008 22:14:56 GMT
Oh no no another one. Think we will have to join team Checkpoint in Pro-Stock. ;D How long did the dinosaurs last?
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Post by Reuben on Jun 30, 2008 12:54:27 GMT
after the comet hit?? not long apparently.
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Post by number1dan on Jun 30, 2008 17:53:24 GMT
im not gonna lie, i do want a brushless system really bad but its so expensive and i dont wanna just forget about all the brushed stuff cos engine maintenence is a lot of the work derek does and i dont wanna turn up on sunday and derek not do anything all day cos it aint fair
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Post by keitheroonie on Jun 30, 2008 19:01:20 GMT
Daniel Horton, your English is getting worse Now to really wind you up, I've just ordered a 13.5, I'm not going through another race well down on pace, I've run out of toys to throw out my pram. I've ordered the Novak EX, I wasn't sure if I could cope with the SS's pace
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Post by issac on Jun 30, 2008 19:07:28 GMT
keith welcome to the club when you want to upgrade you can get a upgrade kit to turn your ex into the ss pro.
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Post by oldtimeracer on Jun 30, 2008 19:37:47 GMT
I guess buying the 17.5 BL system was a waste of time then. Oh well. Anyone wanna buy an MSXX? Think I better take up fishing!
Love the racing. Hate the politics.
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Post by Reuben on Jun 30, 2008 20:09:29 GMT
y? who said 17.5 was going out the window?? at one point i was thinking of just getting a 13.5 also and just racing that. but i think it would pay also to get a 17.5...... its more about what the club decides, as you race more at the club than anywhere, so it would be like using the 17.5 and getting a 13.5 for slcc and when you feel like running pro stock. if the club decides that stock will only be 27t, then ill get a 13.5 and keep my brushed. but i could see myself just leaving the 27t to blacken and go unused. whereas if the club decided 17.5 to run in with stock i would get one of them, aswell as a 13.5. it makes sense for me as i dont own a lathe or have the knowledge/experience with getting the most out of brushed motors. so if i were to stick with brushed (ohh a pun ) then it would cost me just as much to get the appropriate kit to keep my brushed on top form
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Post by mattsedgley on Jun 30, 2008 22:44:34 GMT
I feel that loosing brushed stock would damage the club quite considerably, I too want to go over to brushless and when I do - I'll go to 17.5 brushless for the time being - Ian Loyd proved it's good enough to put you in the B at an SLCC event - which is way above my standards at present. mores the point if more people buy 17.5 brushless there's more chance of SLCC taking notice. particularly at our event if we field a strong team with 17.5s and show those Yeovil boys how it's done!
No doubt the club will have to come up with a decision shortly on what motor goes where etc..
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Post by keitheroonie on Jun 30, 2008 23:29:21 GMT
Just to clarify, the 13.5 I've just purchased is for the SLCC, I'll stick with the brushed for club Racing. To be honest, I enjoy tuning the brushed motors but still have alot to learn, however my attention span is not the greatest and I'll soon get bored of motor tuning secrets. Hopefully at about the time I've lost interest in tuning, a decision will have been made regarding stock brushless motors.
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Post by ukcmf on Jul 1, 2008 5:36:24 GMT
I I'm sure Terry wont be happy about me suggesting it - but do people fancy a group buy? is there enough interest to do an order from america perhaps?? Matt, Before people spend loads of money on kit they may not be able to use lets wait for a decision from the committee eh? Col
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Post by ukcmf on Jul 1, 2008 5:41:48 GMT
I've just ordered a 13.5, I'm not going through another race well down on pace, I've run out of toys to throw out my pram. Yes we've proved that 13.5 are not equivalent to 27T on our track anyway, but lets remember that young Craig was racing with a Brushed stock motor at the STCC at the weekend and more than held his own, infact until he went off in his last Heat he was up for qualifying for the A final. Col
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Post by mattsedgley on Jul 1, 2008 6:55:21 GMT
I agree Col, see you later
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 1, 2008 11:44:13 GMT
...snip No doubt the club will have to come up with a decision shortly on what motor goes where etc.. Methinks that surely is the job of the AGM; not some knee-jerk reaction mid-season after rules have been set etc etc
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