|
Post by gwesty on Oct 5, 2009 19:17:55 GMT
you need to remember that when chassis are designed until now its with 5 cell and at 1425g , ive seen the new schumacher "lipo" chassis and that has the lipo alot furter out ! for "perfect balance"
|
|
|
Post by TryHard on Oct 5, 2009 21:32:38 GMT
The less discerning motorist may think that XRAY don't know what they are talking about but for me I accept that they know more than I do. Xray Bumpf simple phyiscs....a heavy car will not change direction as quickly as a light car, regardless of where the weight is As Glenn points out, the cells previously used were HEAVY(!) relative to a LiPo. Moving an unballasted LiPo out on the chassis has a lot less affect on how a car will handle, espically if compared to moving a set of NiMh cells out.
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Oct 6, 2009 6:57:37 GMT
hi guys , we ran a heat of 10.5 @ 1350 grammes seperate from the std 1500 g 10.5s , the difference was unreal ! my motor was 122 f after a 5 min run . the pick up outta corners was super smooth and very fast . my tyres had minimal wear ( 3 runs and they looked like a set would after 1 run @ 1500 !) the speed difference was good 2 , 1500g was 21.307 (tq) mine @ 1350 was 22.309 ! lap times were .6 faster ! so all in all the motor and running parts are taking less punishment cheers gw Warp speed old boy warp speed......I rest my case M'lud ;D.. As for lateral balance and weight distribution..Im with you Pete ....perfect balance =beter handling fact!!!
|
|
|
Post by oldtimeracer on Oct 6, 2009 7:41:49 GMT
Last night as an experiment I took all the added weights out of the Cyclone, changed the large motor fan for a smaller heatsink and took all the weights off the Lipos.
By mounting the Lipo as Ed suggested (seems to work well) the balance was as good as it was before and the overall weight was 1355gms.
In my opinion it is OK and was very easy to do. Others may struggle but it worked fine for me. Just need to run the car now and see whether there is any significant difference.
For me this is a good move as the Lipos I use in the TC I could not use in my off road car due to all the added weights. Now I can use them in both. Perfect!
|
|
|
Post by TryHard on Oct 6, 2009 8:44:13 GMT
Faster laptimes due to higher corner speed aint the same as just being faster in a straight line... Ahh, les...better handling as results of a lighter car = faster too and my car is balanced left to right, if not more so than when running it heavier... If the car is easier to drive (which is something you old boys seem to need )... does it matter if it's faster?
|
|
|
Post by oldtimeracer on Oct 6, 2009 10:04:13 GMT
Speaking for myself......us "old boys" need all the help we can get! ;D
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Oct 6, 2009 10:32:04 GMT
Faster laptimes due to higher corner speed aint the same as just being faster in a straight line... Ahh, les...better handling as results of a lighter car = faster too and my car is balanced left to right, if not more so than when running it heavier... If the car is easier to drive (which is something you old boys seem to need )... does it matter if it's faster? Contradicting statements there Ed.....To me its obvious that a car thats 0.6 a sec faster per lap "especially at Aldershot" in Gwestys hands will be faster,quicker,"warp speed" or what ever I want to call it on ALL parts of the track!! Most sesible drivers and us "old boys" are realistic about the amount of power we can handle and react too theses days and will show concern with how fast a class may become for the following season so should any new driver wanting to compeet in a faster class next year. ..even a talented driver as Mark Townsend feels he should drop to a more comfortable class next year. I wonder how quick you will be at 54??....you too may need a car thats easier to drive,in fact we all do.
|
|
|
Post by TryHard on Oct 6, 2009 11:39:59 GMT
Surely thats the point of a faster class... it's not ment to be easy? In that it's about progression, and learning how to control something that is bit beyond you initially?
I have to say I was a little worried about trying out 10.5 indoors (I've only done it once before, and that was at new milton!)... but having run it last friday, I was very happy and comfortable with the speed. Even outdoors I've been very happy with 10.5, but then maybe thats because I've been racing mainly on much larger tracks for most of the year... A nicer easier car to drive (that is also faster) would not be a problem to me. Like I said, if the car is easier to drive (which at the lower weight, they are... end of), and as a result you feel more in control, and enjoy it more, does it matter if it's faster?
Far be it for me to say who should race what... but you've kinda answered your own query there. If you dont feel happy with the speed, why not drop down a class, the options are there, and it's not like your forced into running it?
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Oct 6, 2009 12:17:43 GMT
For me this is a good move as the Lipos I use in the TC I could not use in my off road car due to all the added weights. Now I can use them in both. Perfect! Blimey good spot Ian!! Ours won't fit either. I'm off to the workshop right now to getthe XRAY down to 1350 - are 3 wheelers against the rules
|
|
|
Post by oldtimeracer on Oct 6, 2009 12:24:10 GMT
I know my place! At nearly 60 I just cannot handle the faster classes and find 17.5 really good for me. If the weight reduction means less wear and tear on the car it is a bonus regardless of any speed advantages.
I do however run 10.5 in off road and have been considering getting a 6.5 but that is a totally different ball game and seems to be as much about control as speed. Funny but most off road racers actually run overweight rather than underweight. The cars that is, not the drivers.......
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Oct 6, 2009 12:31:17 GMT
Thanks to the BRCA the boys won't be getting any Xmas presents this year. With less weight to accelerate, should I be looking for our new lighter motors to have less torque and more revs?
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Oct 6, 2009 12:53:14 GMT
Far be it for me to say who should race what... but you've kinda answered your own query there. If you dont feel happy with the speed, why not drop down a class, the options are there, and it's not like your forced into running it? And what query is that ....As I said I know my limitations,thats why I dropped 10.5 this half way through the season,my only concern was not the speed but the balance for the clubman.Should we all go 1350 brilliant,It will pep up 17.5 ,13.5 should be even more fun but I think 10.5 will be to much of a handfull for some(including myself)10.5 is already to fast for some at Bashley .... I am never forced to do anything Ed ,Im a realist!! plus I have allready chosen my class choice for next year(13.5) regardless of any weight change,but I might change my mind again should we use 1350 grm back to 17.5, there are less egotistic speed freaks in the lower classes.
|
|
|
Post by oldtimeracer on Oct 6, 2009 13:40:01 GMT
Bring back two wheel drive that's what I say.....
No weight limit
No motor limit
No tyre limit
No grip.
Just bags of fun.
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Oct 6, 2009 14:07:39 GMT
Bring back two wheel drive that's what I say..... No weight limit No motor limit No tyre limit No grip. Just bags of fun. TOO MUCH FOR US OLD FOLK IAN!!!
|
|
|
Post by Reuben on Oct 6, 2009 14:11:41 GMT
10.5 is no way a clubman class at OUR track. At larger national style tracks, then yes I can see it being the class of choice. But bashley you can see that we only have (or had) one or two regular 10.5 drivers. Adam & Craig. everyone else is pretty much 13.5 or 17.5 (nothing wrong with that, its just personal prefrence) Regardless of all the facts, if the BRCA want to change the weight limit, they will. I myself am looking forward to seeing how these effect 17.5, and we have all winter to get ready for the change ! plus if its true the motors are running cooler at the lower weight, then this is all good.
|
|
|
Post by oldtimeracer on Oct 6, 2009 14:21:40 GMT
Regarding weight limits. Whatever will be, will be. We will adapt and cope. That's it really.
I think we like to debate/argue/talk whatever you want to call it, all of these sorts of issues to death and OK that's good.
However, at the end of the day, for me anyway, the whole thing is about having fun. I will be as happy to run at 1350gms as I would be at 1700gms. It's all the same and relative to each other at the end of the day.
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Oct 6, 2009 15:17:29 GMT
Regarding weight limits. Whatever will be, will be. We will adapt and cope. That's it really. I think we like to debate/argue/talk whatever you want to call it, all of these sorts of issues to death and OK that's good. However, at the end of the day, for me anyway, the whole thing is about having fun. I will be as happy to run at 1350gms as I would be at 1700gms. It's all the same and relative to each other at the end of the day. The bottom line is that all classes WILL be faster along with its other advantages,yes! thats good,I just hope that should we go 1350 that the culbman running his "old favorite" wont feel disadvantaged should he not be able to make the weight with a good lateral balance.....there's nothing worse than feeling disadvantaged regardless whether it makes any difference to your speed.
|
|
|
Post by oldtimeracer on Oct 6, 2009 15:44:42 GMT
I understand where you are coming from Les but in truth would it be any worse than a "clubman" not being able to afford the latest speedo which all the "top" guys have or not being able to buy that new set of tyres for a final etc etc.
At least not adding weight is a cheaper option than either of those.
Being on top in this sport is the same as any other. It costs! Those that have will and those that don't won't.
|
|
|
Post by lesbaldry on Oct 6, 2009 20:52:10 GMT
I understand where you are coming from Les but in truth would it be any worse than a "clubman" not being able to afford the latest speedo which all the "top" guys have or not being able to buy that new set of tyres for a final etc etc. At least not adding weight is a cheaper option than either of those. Being on top in this sport is the same as any other. It costs! Those that have will and those that don't won't. Thanks Ian im glad you understand my point,unlike others I think of the clubman with limited funds,if anyone is racing on a tight buget there is always something that comes along to "brake the Camels back" to make some walk away from our hobby. Just to change the subject slightly,SHMCC had a good showing in the SLCC series this season,I believe we probably pionered this class last winter also too in the SLCC series showing how close the racing can be,lets hope any weight drop will atract more new and young drivers to what I believe to be a perfect and true "stock" class what ever your ability.
|
|
|
Post by oldtimeracer on Oct 7, 2009 7:25:52 GMT
It's always been the same problem Les. This is turning into an expensive hobby and is sure to be too expensive for some.
At least removing weight is a no cost option in theory.
There must be other ways to limit costs for the beginner to make them more interested in going racing.
|
|
|
Post by issac on Oct 7, 2009 8:39:38 GMT
what i find funny is
when we started using lipo's we were told to use them with caution and not to mistreat them.
now becouse of a possible weight change we are having to strap them outside of the chassis and maybe scrape them on the ground causing damage.
how times change
|
|
|
Post by wessex88 on Oct 7, 2009 9:05:10 GMT
It's always been the same problem Les. This is turning into an expensive hobby and is sure to be too expensive for some. At least removing weight is a no cost option in theory. There must be other ways to limit costs for the beginner to make them more interested in going racing. Ansmann @ 1500grams. For my five eggs the sooner the change is made at club level the better.This will happen, doing it sooner at club level may give our racers an advantage next Year.
|
|
|
Post by johnpape on Oct 7, 2009 11:46:21 GMT
[/quote]
Why doesn't the BRCA mandate a minimum Lipo weight to manufacturers and keep it at 1500 then we don t all have to go out and spend hundreds of pounds to be competitive having already taken out a mortgage to go brushless? [/quote]
Because LIPO batteries are made in the far east for general worldwide use. The British market is a very small percentage of that so for the BRCA to make them weight the LIPO's just for us is just not gonna happen.
|
|
|
Post by johnpape on Oct 7, 2009 11:50:02 GMT
With all due respect Ed we do not all run the same car as you. My 009, hardly an old car, will get nowhere near 1350, balanced or not. I do not know if replacement electronics, I hardly run anything old and heavy, would get me there. But lets say new speedo, receiver and servo to get there. That is minimum of £400 * 3 cars. I beg to differ Pete, have you built the car with no weight on it. My 009 weighs at 1355 with 45 grams of lead weight on it. Balances absolutely perfectly left to right.
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Oct 7, 2009 12:04:10 GMT
It's always been the same problem Les. This is turning into an expensive hobby and is sure to be too expensive for some. At least removing weight is a no cost option in theory. There must be other ways to limit costs for the beginner to make them more interested in going racing. Only in theory Ian. if you can't remove enough weight to be competitive then you are into the high cost option of replacing electronics etc to get there.
|
|
|
Post by oldtimeracer on Oct 7, 2009 12:25:48 GMT
Personally I very much doubt it will come to that Pete. That is a very extreme position.
Maybe you should take up knitting? No weight limits there.
It is also easy to talk yourself into the mindset that because you are a few gramms heavier it is the only reason you are not competitive.
However. Time will tell no doubt. For me, not being a superstar national racer I am not bothered one way or the other. I know I can gain better lap times by improving my racecraft much more than taking a few weights off. ;D ;D
|
|
|
Post by yellowshark on Oct 7, 2009 22:41:25 GMT
John I think you misunderstood me. I was trying to make the point to Ed that whilst his car made 1350 and was nicely balanced, that doesn't mean that everyone can achieve that, whether they are running the same chassis or not.
I wasn't trying to suggest that an 009 could not not get to 1350, just making the observation that mine cannot with its current configuration. The logical conclusion for me therefore is that I would need to start spending serious money. I am sure most would agree that a light, performing, resilient component is normally more expensive that a not so light, performing resilient component. EG chuck away the the £200 ESC and replace it with a £250 one.
What I don't understand is that I read Glen's post a saying that without weights his 009 comes in at 1310 gm whereas a quick calc says mine would come in at 1410gm. Why I am out 100gm is beyond me. Glen didn't say whether his cool motor was sporting a fan or not, which could account for some but probably 25gm at most.
|
|
|
Post by mattsedgley on Oct 7, 2009 23:18:22 GMT
Don't quote me on this Pete but I think the Fan weighs in at 35g, also comparing your car with Glenn's he has much less wiring within the vehicle, I'm sure you could shave some more weight off there.
Personally - I've not tried to balance mine at 1350, because I know I cant get there.. i've 100g of weight on the car, and that'll bring me down nicely too about 1400...
where the other 50 grams will come from is less clear, hence my vote for 1400g which I feel, personally is a reasonable weight for us to change too.
Sadly unless anyone is willing to travel to the AGM at the end of this month, we'll not get a say in what happens within our own hobby...
|
|
|
Post by TryHard on Oct 8, 2009 8:23:59 GMT
John I think you misunderstood me. I was trying to make the point to Ed that whilst his car made 1350 and was nicely balanced, that doesn't mean that everyone can achieve that, whether they are running the same chassis or not. I wasn't trying to suggest that an 009 could not not get to 1350, just making the observation that mine cannot with its current configuration. The logical conclusion for me therefore is that I would need to start spending serious money. I am sure most would agree that a light, performing, resilient component is normally more expensive that a not so light, performing resilient component. EG chuck away the the £200 ESC and replace it with a £250 one. What I don't understand is that I read Glen's post a saying that without weights his 009 comes in at 1310 gm whereas a quick calc says mine would come in at 1410gm. Why I am out 100gm is beyond me. Glen didn't say whether his cool motor was sporting a fan or not, which could account for some but probably 25gm at most. Pete, like I highlighted earlier, I'm not using anything special in lightweight electrics. However, I guess I was slightly lucky as that as the same time as this topic arose, I was building up a fresh car, so had the opportunity to have a play around before moutning everything up Now, I've not looked at your cars, but I have discussed with quite a lot of other people running different cars who have had a play around. The 416, 009, Cyclone and Photon are all pretty light to begin with, and with a bit of thought should be able to get down close to 1350g without the need to resorting to lightweight gear. The Mi4 is a bit of a portly beast (but fast with it ), but there are options out there to help it get down...and bear in mind that most of the team guys run a GM speedo, which is probably one of the heaviest out there! Like Matt's said, dropping the fan mount will save an easy 25g or so. If you want to run a fan, a bit of lexan will do the trick, but given the lower motor temps being seen, I'm quite tempted to remove mine althougher now Other things like shortening wires do help (a suprising amount if your using 12awg), or changing the motor wires to 14awg saves a little as well. That weight is being lost in the right place too, given the left rear corner of most of the cars on the market is the heaviest point. Other weight to well that really does depend on the car, but generically, titanium screws can lose 10-15g over steel. Then lighter components such as driveshafts and layshafts can all have a positive benefit too. I guess whats being highlighted (and not just by myself), is that before resorting to lighter electrics, there are other (cheaper) avenues that can be explored first. Ed
|
|
|
Post by TryHard on Oct 8, 2009 8:33:14 GMT
Sadly unless anyone is willing to travel to the AGM at the end of this month, we'll not get a say in what happens within our own hobby... This is going slightly off topic but.... it's always been that way. I myself will personally be going (mainly as I put in a proposal to go to one day nationals, thinking about the cost) And bear in mind that any weight limits decided are technically only for the classes raced at BRCA sanctioned events. (Which for the nationals is mod and 10.5 currently). What happens in other classes and series can be decided by the organisers, no-one should feel they are tied to exactly what the BRCA has in it's rule book (think motor list for the SLCC). On the other hand, it does make sense for series to have matching regs, as it makes it easier to transfer between different ones... and most (not all) take the BRCA regs as the baseline. Ed
|
|