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Post by mattsedgley on Oct 19, 2010 10:06:46 GMT
Proposals for the BRCA agm are up, ed Clark has submitted lipo and sub c cells to be out pawed, and us all to run life cells.. Discuss..
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Post by Reuben on Oct 19, 2010 12:53:03 GMT
where are the proposals?
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Post by Reuben on Oct 19, 2010 13:03:22 GMT
nevermind found it - its on central booking for anyone else interested.
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Post by mattsedgley on Oct 19, 2010 15:45:29 GMT
have you seen the rule proposed by Ed Clark? drop all LiPo and Sub-C cells everyone to run LiFe 6.6V.. words fail me, what a silly idea.
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Post by lesbaldry on Oct 19, 2010 16:47:18 GMT
have you seen the rule proposed by Ed Clark? drop all LiPo and Sub-C cells everyone to run LiFe 6.6V.. words fail me, what a silly idea. It will mean extra expense for all and even more for those who don't have a suitable charger(I presume they do need a special charger ?),If Ed's thought was "to slow things down " Spec ESC's(non fly/boost timing) would probably be a far cheaper option but probably a lot harder to list and police ?....Besides I'm reliably informed that LiFe cells are only available in rather low capacity's at the moment (20C)....hmmm it will become like the early days of LiPo's,every one dashes out to buy the latest Hi-cap cells as they progress,more expence!......Arnt they expensive too??........Life cells! I suppose thats one way to kill the up and coming clubman on a buget from experiencing the Nats next year ........I really hope the BRCA think of the clubman ,after all 90% of Nat drivers are clubman just like us!
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Post by yellowshark on Oct 19, 2010 17:20:31 GMT
have you seen the rule proposed by Ed Clark? drop all LiPo and Sub-C cells everyone to run LiFe 6.6V.. words fail me, what a silly idea. It will mean extra expense for all and even more for those who don't have a suitable charger(I presume they do need a special charger ?),If Ed's thought was "to slow things down " Spec ESC's(non fly/boost timing) would probably be a far cheaper option but probably a lot harder to list and police ?....Besides I'm reliably informed that LiFe cells are only available in rather low capacity's at the moment (20C)....hmmm it will become like the early days of LiPo's,every one dashes out to buy the latest Hi-cap cells as they progress,more expence!......Arnt they expensive too??........Life cells! I suppose thats one way to kill the up and coming clubman on a buget from experiencing the Nats next year ........I really hope the BRCA think of the clubman ,after all 90% of Nat drivers are clubman just like us! +1 It would be nice to have at least one year when one does not have to spend vast amounts of money upgrading to new technology
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Post by Reuben on Oct 19, 2010 20:03:32 GMT
+1 on the expense!
mayb just make modified life cells - but not the pro-stock / super stock class.
Les, most Lipo chargers are life chargers too and Lilo cells as well (but they dont exist in RC yet?).
But the cells might be an expense - anyone notice that Lipo advances have slowed now? 40 / 50C seem to be where its at atm.... mayb they arent developing anymore? or just reached the end of the curve
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Post by lesbaldry on Oct 19, 2010 20:58:30 GMT
+1 on the expense! mayb just make modified life cells - but not the pro-stock / super stock class. I expect the "Worlds" rules will dominate the Mod class for the BRCA,as it should ! I think I read somewhere there's a thought towards a higher chassis minimum weight for the next worlds,as for cells,who knows?? There's been all sorts of ideas banted around to slow things down,I just hope the BRCA's solution is sensible. Personally I think the BRCA have sat on their hands with this matter. Europe and the states saw all this coming and acted quick,If the UK had done the same some of us would be a little richer and less frustrated
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Post by Reuben on Oct 19, 2010 22:19:20 GMT
ETS are running their pro-stock class as 10.5 with non timing spec ESC, and it looks v.slow compared to current 13.5 let alone 10.5 boost. AND ETS have a "Hobby" class, that is a sealed can with a eco style chassis with minimum hop-ups (pro eco anyone? ) But as we all know, what BRCA do generally isnt strictly adopted, and we hope to do the best for our members at our club, whilst providing a class for those who will be doing the larger events. Fair to say the BRCA have been more of a guideline to SHMCC with its 17.5 and pro eco successes
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Post by TryHard on Oct 26, 2010 22:50:24 GMT
Knew this would create some discussion, and that was the whole point... My reasoning is pretty simple, having been discussing at length about this around the pits this year, the general concensous is that all the classes are just getting too quick, with the modified guys now using timing boost as well. With "stock" classes, it's relatively easy to do slow it down by using slower motors, however Open modified is more difficult, because it's just that, Open Mod! The only real way is by limiting battery voltage. This was done before, back in the days of NiMh, by simply dropping a cell out of a 6 cell pack. The neat thing about this was that if you wanted to go mod, all you needed to do was get a motor, and drop a cell out of your exisiting packs, and you could also drop back a class easy enough. Now, the issues started when we switched to LiPo. Firstly, a LiPo pack has way more peak Volts than even the best NiMh, and now with the ever bigger capacities, we use more of those volts for longer in a run. In the days of 5cell mod, and LiPo Pro-stock, you needed to carry two sets of cells to race both classes... not exactly conductive to encourage those who wanted to run mod at nationals, and also run other classes at clubs. and a limiting barrier to progression. This was one of the big reasons mod was orginally capped to a 6.5t when the LiPo was brought in, to keep the two types close. Anyway, the issues relating to motor limits (pushing things to the maximum etc), and in wanting to keep in situ with the rest of the world, we ended up where we are now, with Open Mod & LiPo. Ok, so thats the background... why LiFe? and why for all classes? Well, firstly, it's voltage is much more similar to 5cell (6.6v nominal), so serves to reduce the punch and power avaliable. This would have a knock-on (benifical IMO) affect of reducing the punch out the corners. Secondly, doing it for all classes keeps the lines of progression open... and surely that should be encouraged. We 100% don't want to be back in a situation where you need different cells to go into a different class... K.I.S.S Thirdly, LiFe is a much safer technology than LiPo. I'm normally the last person to hark on about it like beardy-weirdy, but have seen some of the not so good effects of LiPo fire's this year, it is certainly worth baring in mind. My main beef is this... we are getting into a situation again, where the cell technology is being pushed so hard, that we have unstable chemistries, that need precise procedures and so on to used, and even stored safely. God forbid "little johnny" (why does he always get it in the neck? ) who accidently uses the wrong setting on his charger, and cause's some serious damage to himself and/or others. LiPo's now are at the point where by their very nature they are not tollerant enough to this abuse. LiFe on the other hand is tolerant to this; No safety issues with deep discharge, no combustion (i.e. Flames!), and even allow for much faster charge rates As a result of this, it's not hard to see why LiFe is rapidly taking over from LiPo (along with Li-Ion) in the industrial sectors... hate to say it, but LiPo will go the same way as NiMh, and be seen as old technology. Ok, thats the scare-mongering bit over with... Les is right, LiFe at the moment is still at it's early stages, however the technology is certainly moving fast. It's not so much the C rating, more the capacity that has been the problem. GM do have 4200mah cell on it's way now, and they are no more expensive than LiPo (I've even got 2 small LiFe packs in my MM warmers!). On cost, to play devils advocate... if your racing competitivly, you can't tell me you wouldn't look towards buying new cells for next year? In which case, does it matter if LiFe or LiPo? The last point, is that EFRA also have LiFe on their AGM list... so to have the option on ours is a bit of a no brainer, wouldn't want to miss a trick again... Anyway... onto realities. I actually don't expect the proposal to pass! Basically, and this is my opinion, the technology is about a year away from being fully suitable for all classes, and given there is also the added issue of it being for four classes (rather than the two originally envisaged..), makes it more difficult to "sell" the benefits! What it does do (the same goes for any proposal, and a point sometimes I wish others would sometimes realise), if they aren't he proposal list they can't be discussed at the AGM! The whole point is to encourage discussion, and think a little further into the future of our sport, not just next year... I honestly believe we could have a seriously good solid structure of classes, encouraging progress up the ranks all the way to the top... but this needs good foundations. The clubmans proposal is a good step, but in an ideal world, you should be able to have to only change one component to move up the ranks. This part would, IMO ideally be the motor, as that is easy to tech! Going LiFe would be part of that strucutre, as it is a good step forwards from LiPo (but see the opening sentance two paragraphs above ) Anyway, I've said my piece... seeing as every one here is the BRCA, guess I'll see you all at the AGM!
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Post by yellowshark on Oct 27, 2010 21:23:11 GMT
Don't understand. If you , ie One, cannot handle the speed then drop a class or turn down your boost/timing etc. Don't force everyone else to spend another 400/500 quid for an unnecessary change in technology
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Post by mattsedgley on Oct 27, 2010 22:58:18 GMT
Don't understand. If you , ie One, cannot handle the speed then drop a class or turn down your boost/timing etc. Don't force everyone else to spend another 400/500 quid for an unnecessary change in technology +1 +1 +1 +1!!!!!!!!!
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Post by TryHard on Oct 28, 2010 11:08:51 GMT
Don't understand. If you , ie One, cannot handle the speed then drop a class or turn down your boost/timing etc. Don't force everyone else to spend another 400/500 quid for an unnecessary change in technology You've not obvioulsy noted the comment where I don't expect it the proposal to pass, and am just using it as a way of instigating discussion over the future of the sport!Be warned, LiPo will die, and LiFe is the future, just not yet... it only takes one LiPo to go up in the wrong place at the wrong time, with an insurance claim for everyone to start jumping on a bandwagon to call for it's banning. Not saying it'll happen (and I hope it never does!), but that potential situation exists, end of! Really, is it that hard to grasp?
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Post by mattsedgley on Oct 28, 2010 14:49:07 GMT
what's hard to grasp is how you've lost all your roots Ed, where you came from, a grass roots look at the sport, and the expense that changing to LiFe will cost to many many people within this hobby.. to you or I the cost doesnt matter - but what about to all the juniors doing this off their own back? or parents supporting more than one child?
And don't spin the old line about it's only the rules for BRCA sanctioned events, because, we all know that's cow poo! every series in the country runs to BRCA rules in some form or another, and as such all clubs do too.. you change the top and everything else below it will change also.
that's forcing a £150 - £200 sale on almost every racer.. the only winners in that situation are the manufacturers and the distributors. oh and that's not even counting those who might have to buy a new charger aswell...
Agreed, LiPo can be unstable, but it's nothing that a stop on LiPo over a certain capacity and discharge rate cant make safe particularly coupled with some common sense rulings...
Oh and when you say things like this... "seeing as every one here is the BRCA, guess I'll see you all at the AGM!"
All that does is exasperate the situation, I don't know of many people that can afford to make the trip up there.. perhaps the BRCA's slowness to adapt to new technology and online voting is not as innocent as may seem, and trust me, I've chatted to the right people about it, and also volunteered time to a number of BRCA projects.
I seem to recall you suggesting a lot of proposal's last year also, it's interesting how many people propose things, or rather it's more interesting who doesn't suggest things..
The best way to inspire debate is not to suggest it at an AGM like you have, but to discuss it at every round for a year, I was at Cots/ and West London, and heard nothing about it at any BTCC event either. so it wasn't as if the whole pits were talking about it.
Mail out to clubs, take a snapshot of what people are actually using, get a grasp on the figures or people plus their battery technology.
talk to other divisions.. the number of people I know who do pan car/ 12th/ buggy/ tc or any vairiation on those is long, are all the other divisions going to move at the same time???
consult with EFRA - we could do with having atleast Mod the same. the rest of the classes are less important.
finally warn members it's coming up, give people 12 months notice so they have a chance to save for their new cells, as i know plenty of people who are running on packs that are more than 12 months old. don't forget the outlawed packs will be worthless. they'll have no market value....
with all of the proposals this year, i have to think.. if it's not broke.. dont fix it - best year for TC in ages so they say.. so why go and change it all...
just my two pence.. - I am a BRCA member, but i'll not be going to the agm.. I'll save the 30quid of fuel for my LiFe cells.
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Post by TryHard on Oct 28, 2010 18:03:53 GMT
I'm a little lost Matt, as if you actually read my post, you'd realise that I'm not doing it because I think it's what we need at this point in time, but something that needs to be debated and figured out for the future... or as you put it, to give 12 months warning!
On a couple of your points, if you think limiting C rating and capacity of the cells would stop unstable chemistry, then sorry thats a little delluded... we all know already that one persons 5000 is not the same as anothers, so how do you measure it, without massive cost to the section?
I had long discussions with people who I respect on the matter this year, from all levels within the sport (and I'm pretty sure I have mentioned it to you as well at some point!), and most of us were in agreement... yes, it's the future, but it's a step too soon for next season. so your so called "fact" about it not being talked about is, well, poo!
If your insinuating that with your comment about me making proposals the past few years is ment as a jibe against me, at least I have the nous and guts to stand up and propose something that I'm pretty sure a lot of people are not going to like... It's no skin off my nose if it doesn't go through, by that point in time the objectives of the proposal will have been achieved.
You might think I'm misguided (if you do, more fool you), and am out of touch with what matters in the hobby, but I make no apologies for not attending many club races this year... but my time and budget doesn't allow for much racing. Personally, I think you questioning how much I appear to have forgotten about the grass roots quite insulting... I think you'll find I'll be voting quite happily on proposals that would make the sport and nationals more attractive to the club racer and newbies.
I'm also damm well aware how much this hobby costs, so please don't ever bring that into question again. One of the big reasons I don't expect the proposal to fly is that it appears 13.5 is a shoe in to replace 10.5, and having two equipment changes is a big no-no in my opinion (even if I also think a lot of people like to hide behind cost as a reason on occasion).
You've also missed, that there is no point just having one class with seperate battery regs... it doesn't encourage people to go into that class. A lot of people have bemoaned the death of modified at club level, so the only way to at least attempt to revive it is to slow it down, and make it easier to switch. By having seperate motors and batteries to race that class, you will never encourage people to move up...
The other divisions within the sport run to pretty much seperate rules... 12th has one cell, and that works for them (even if they only switched this year). Off-road is different again, as they can never make full use of the avaliable power of a LiPo pack, simply because of the compartive lack of grip compared to TC. If anything a lower voltage LiFe pack would be a bigger benefit to those guys!
And my final point goes about the AGM (and it's apparent lack of technology). Every year for the past few years, people have moaned that there is no online voting, which is a fair comment until you realise one critical aspect.... 90% or so of the proposals on the list don't make it through being approved without some form of amendment following discussion between the attending members at the AGM. If you can show me a way how you achieve the same thing with an online system, in a short space of time... then be my guest, and I'd be happy to second any proposal to both the section and BRCA constitution (which is also required to make the change) As it stands, yet again, no proposal has been put forward to either, so it stays as it is... simples
Anyway, thats my last 2p on teh subject, feel that regardless what I say here I'm just going to be lambasted by the doom and gloom merchants, sorry for attempting to give a damm about the sport we love!
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Post by lesbaldry on Oct 28, 2010 19:27:35 GMT
To be totally honest there is a lot of sense in what Ed says.We do have speed issues and to some minor degree a safety issue (mind you I have seen more Nihms dangerously explode than Lipo fires). The transition period between Nhims and Lipo was quite straight forward due to their "equal'ish " power output but unfortunately this is not the case with LiPo/ LiFe! I can see the clubman and the clubs struggle with the class rules during this period. As Eds states It will come theres no doubt about it but I fear we will loose more racers than we gain with the change....and that IS important!! Just on a funny note...given the choice of standing next to an over charging pack of either Nihms or Lipo,I would run like hell with the Nihms but probably get the Marsh Mellows ready with the Lipo
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Post by TryHard on Oct 28, 2010 20:08:38 GMT
Having been chatting with Matt this evening, just to add some reassurance that it is only for discussion, I am at the AGM this weekend, and basically, if it looks like LiFe will fly (however unlikely), I'll either pull the proposal (stranger things have happened!), or follow Reubens suggestion of it being for Mod only, but with a view to filtering down next year... So there's a bit of an update.. P.S. Les... not sure thoose marshmellows would taste too good, maybe a bit acidic
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Post by yellowshark on Oct 28, 2010 22:48:08 GMT
Sorry Ed but in my book that doesn't wash. I didn't miss your note. A proposal is a proposal and it can be voted in even of the proposer doesnt think it will. Your logic for the proposal is not just on safety, it says to slow all classes down.
My point on the other hand does wash. You(ie one) dont have to to race with a car you can't control - slow it down. If you think that is unfair well what is unfair about better drivers being able to control the speed and drive faster than you?
Or drop to a slower class if you are a pot hunter and dont enjoy close racing in the d or e or f or g final. I didnt hear any of the 10.5 drivers in the SLCC or STCC or Nats complaining about the speed, apart from they weren't going fast enough!!
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Post by yellowshark on Oct 28, 2010 22:50:48 GMT
Don't understand. If you , ie One, cannot handle the speed then drop a class or turn down your boost/timing etc. Don't force everyone else to spend another 400/500 quid for an unnecessary change in technology +1 +1 +1 +1!!!!!!!!! Steady on Matt. It's bad enough having to deal with Reubs realising his dream, not sure I can cope with you going all luvvy duvvy on me ;D
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Post by TryHard on Oct 28, 2010 23:02:55 GMT
Sorry Pete... but when you have less than 1/2 a lap between the top mod guys and the top 10.5 at a national, that is too fast for a supposed Stock class. And in another way, would you prefer to race 10 guys in 10.5, or 70guys in 13.5...
I should point out, that personally, I find 10.5 no problem, but can see that from a lot of other peoples perspectives that a stock class should be a certain amount slower than the open modified, at the moment, we don't have that situation.
I'm pretty sure 10.5 will be gone from the national scene, a) due to the speed and b) due to the popularity of 13.5 at a club level.
You also missed the point that as the proposer, I do reserve the right to a) amend the proposal or b) pull it...
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Post by yellowshark on Oct 29, 2010 10:54:51 GMT
Lets hope you do then Ed. If both proposals are voted in at the BRCA agm and assuming LIFEs are priced similalrly, it will cost me £815 min. for batteries and a stable of 13.5s, assuming that my chargers are compatible.
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Post by lesbaldry on Oct 29, 2010 16:51:24 GMT
IF! I had my way the Nat classes would be 17.5,Open ESC and Mod.....For some strange reason there seems to be a stigma attached to driving what some perceive as a slow boring class ..17.5/3rd gen has proven to be quicker than 13.5 2nd gen on some tracks! but cast your memory's back to the days of 13.5 1st gen,many moaned that it was too fast as a true stock class but no bugger wants to drive the much faster 17.5 now!! this I find rather strange,or is it snobbery Back in the old days (and I can hear you all saying "old fart" The now snails pace 27t stock was the most popular and hotly contested class ever at National level,Fact!....and now we have the little 17.5 that produces lap times faster than the old pro stock (19t) with out much support at all ......but I wouldn't mind betting a 13.5 LiFe wont be much faster than todays 17,5 ......Think about it!! because the future predicts we will all be driving this sort of pace with the posibility of 10.5 been droped ,so you had all better get used to a slower pace or jump up to mod PDQ ..... Should have introduced 17.5 a long while ago at Nat/regional level prehaps we would'nt be in this mess with speed issues as we are now? ......The US did and they seem quite happy,but they always have been a bit odd lol
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Post by Reuben on Oct 29, 2010 17:21:10 GMT
17.5 - Open ESC Lipo Mod - Life sorted! that would be my vote! and I would race 17.5 Lipo at club, and make the expense to race in the most prestigious class (mod) at national level. however 13.5 at the moment is wicked fun indoors and I love it. 17.5 wouldnt be much slower at all indoors, but just would be much easier to drive - mayb to easy for some? then step up to mod hehe.
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Post by Reuben on Oct 29, 2010 17:23:53 GMT
13.5 will be a hard class to drop due to its popularity by most top club racers - everyone has 13.5's so will fight hard to drop that class, so I dont think we will see the end of 13.5, and we wont see 17.5 until 13.5 goes
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Post by lesbaldry on Oct 29, 2010 17:52:42 GMT
17.5 - Open ESC Lipo Mod - Life sorted! that would be my vote! and I would race 17.5 Lipo at club, and make the expense to race in the most prestigious class (mod) at national level. however 13.5 at the moment is wicked fun indoors and I love it. 17.5 wouldnt be much slower at all indoors, but just would be much easier to drive - mayb to easy for some? then step up to mod hehe. Just to pick up on one of your words Reuben (this is not a knock chap purely an observation)....Prestigious....that I think sums up the Brits attitude towards the "Classes" ie not wanting to drive 17.5 (stock).......There is an awfull amount of skill and technique needed to be fast in a "slower class" the art of carrying corner speed has been long lost! its more about ESC profiles and good brakes. Unfortunately we are all guilty of wanting the latest fastest gear but its now a vicious circle and the only people who benefit are the manufactures....theres a lot to be said for spec racing as long as fast enough for most to enjoy....but thats another debate
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Post by Reuben on Oct 29, 2010 18:20:23 GMT
17.5 - Open ESC Lipo Mod - Life sorted! that would be my vote! and I would race 17.5 Lipo at club, and make the expense to race in the most prestigious class (mod) at national level. however 13.5 at the moment is wicked fun indoors and I love it. 17.5 wouldnt be much slower at all indoors, but just would be much easier to drive - mayb to easy for some? then step up to mod hehe. Just to pick up on one of your words Reuben (this is not a knock chap purely an observation)....Prestigious....that I think sums up the Brits attitude towards the "Classes" ie not wanting to drive 17.5 (stock).......There is an awfull amount of skill and technique needed to be fast in a "slower class" the art of carrying corner speed has been long lost! I completely agree with that statement, and as you know I love 17.5, its a class that requires perfection to be quick - even at bashley. and at club level I have probably raced 17.5 more this year than 13.5 due to its popularity - and I have learnt lots of skills in carrying corner speed and hitting apexes. Rather than just POWER. My preference is just to attempt Mod next year, I know I will be bad at it, and most probably last. But its something I want to experience. Its because of this widely adopted attitude that a stock class winner wouldnt stand a chance with a higher power motor - that I want to prove to myself I can drive the power.
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Post by lesbaldry on Oct 29, 2010 19:01:25 GMT
You wont be last,there are guys doing mod(for the prestige) at nat level that a few at SHMCC could beat with a 13.5 In a perfect world we would all like to arrive at a track Knowing that we all have equal power with sensible speed and that any success is due to other skills rather than been blown away by the Buck..9.5.LiFe with spec ESC for 2012?? Ps I WAS just using the word "prestige" nothing else ment honest
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Post by ginge on Oct 29, 2010 19:22:07 GMT
I know I'm fairly new to tc and still got to learn, but what I've seen is that 17.5 is plenty fast enough for club race. Now I'm guilty as the next man wanting to go faster and to be the fastest. So far I've resited temptation to move to 13.5 untill I've homed my skills at 17.5 even to the point where I was racing against 13.5. At newbury , now I knew I wasn't going to be quicker than them but I wasn't far of there pace but most of all I had a great days racing. Now is'nt that's what its all about having a laugh with a few like minded people?
Ginge
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Post by yellowshark on Oct 30, 2010 8:23:17 GMT
Good point about the temperatures Reuben, I hadn’t thought about that but you are dead right. I accept we haven’t done much racing this year but we blew three motors last year and zero this year (famous last words!).
But I can’t help feeling that 17.5 NG is still too fast for entry level – you could argue we cover that off at Bashley with the Eco class I suppose. Lest we forget, it is at least lap if not a lap and a half faster than 27T which in reality means beginners are driving 19T spec cars
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Post by yellowshark on Oct 30, 2010 8:32:15 GMT
snip... My preference is just to attempt Mod next year, I know I will be bad at it, and most probably last. But its something I want to experience. Its because of this widely adopted attitude that a stock class winner wouldnt stand a chance with a higher power motor - that I want to prove to myself I can drive the power. I've got a stable of 10.5s you can buy ;D
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