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Post by yellowshark on Jul 16, 2008 12:57:31 GMT
Hi Matt, a couple of comments required cos I fall into the pit crew/bankroll description ;D My agenda - in 2 parts Part 1 As most know I plan on running Craig & Ross on brushed technology in 2009. Four reasons; I have invested a lot of dough in brushed technology; I have the time to play around with brushed engines; MY enjoyment comes from seeing the boys enjoy themselves and being involved with them; but also the part I play in contributing to a well setup and performing car, which is really interesting to me and I don’t mind being at the bench at midnight on a Saturday night as I normally am!; and probably most importantly, Craig remains competitive with brushed technology. Part 2 I am all for brushless and think the club should try to adopt it in stock, which is why I started this thread in the first place. I say this because I sense it will make it easier to get new members who would, on an individual basis, just want to race and would be happy with an RTR if it were competitive. But, and I think we all agree on this, we have to try and make sure it is done on a reasonable basis of equality. So that is my agenda over, what was I going to say? Yup brushed is here to stay and we should commend Les, Ian and Chris for what they are doing, and they are sacrificing RRC points! I am not disregarding Les’ view. Like many I have had enormous help and education from Les over the past year. I do though have not quite the same view as Les on this I think, I say I think because we have not discussed it. I started this thread to try and get the views from Les, Chris and Ian. My ONLY concern is about our position in relation to the BRCA and the advice we give newbies which needs to be consistent and well thought out. As we know the BRCA “rules” are only guidelines for clubs but nonetheless the majority follow them, for good reason. As Col has alluded to, jumping the gun and going a different way has the potential to open up a can of worms, something ultimately that we rely on the Committee to do the dirty work on. I really don’t think this perspective has anything to do with trying to hold on to brushed motors. BUT we should not ignore those members who run brushed as we go forward on this and should respect and accomodate their desire to continue with brushed if that is the case. So to me the way forward is research (which our three colleagues are undertaking); an understanding of what the sport is going to do; deliberation by the committee on what is best for the club in terms of members’ needs and desires and where the sport is going; formulation of considered proposals; presentation of those recommendations to the membership at the AGM. If that sounds slow, well we already voted the rules in for 2008 so what is the rush actually. That’s it Oh and this is absolutely God’s truth; I have just asked Craig “Are you happy with brushless or would you like to go brushed?” “Nah no need” or something like that “What about the SLCC?” (competing against 13.5) “Nah” You can take from that what you will. On one hand he doesn’t spend the time preparing the motors. On the other I think he is just happy racing, learning his racecraft and improving his times and feels no need to change.
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Post by lesbaldry on Jul 16, 2008 13:45:24 GMT
Wow what a debate Cnsider this senario A brand new racer has a good chassis and want to compeat at a good level in thr future(SLCC?) but he's undesided regading motors BL/BR'ed.....What would you recomend?? A good BL speedo with a 17.5 to learn the roaps at his club track along with a 13.5 (a proven good alrounder) for later and the SLCC?....Should he wish to race in the wet,what should he buy? A secondhand or Mickey mouse BR'ed speedo(punch not needed in the wet) for say £20/30? along with a second hand BR'ed motor(plenty about for £10/15)...No Laythe,Dyno or umpteen rebuilds needed as he may or may not use it more than once or twice a year??.....In my view thats a cheep way to race in the wet and be copedative in the dry??? Sorry this was amied but with love and respect...Just my veiw on this please understand
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Post by ukcmf on Jul 16, 2008 13:51:12 GMT
Les, Sounds good to me. And prob the way we'll go with Dan although I suspect a min of two motors of each sort will be needed and of course a spare speed controller - just in case..... Whatever else this hobby is it aint cheap x
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Post by lesbaldry on Jul 16, 2008 14:04:39 GMT
Les, Sounds good to me. And prob the way we'll go with Dan although I suspect a min of two motors of each sort will be needed and of course a spare speed controller - just in case..... Whatever else this hobby is it aint cheap x Yep and some Col,trouble is the quicker you get the more it costs... I forgot about the wet tyres for £30 that we may or may not use and will go hard/off if not looked after...sod it who's for racing indoors??
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Post by ukcmf on Jul 16, 2008 14:07:17 GMT
Les, Sounds good to me. And prob the way we'll go with Dan although I suspect a min of two motors of each sort will be needed and of course a spare speed controller - just in case..... Whatever else this hobby is it aint cheap x Yep and some Col,trouble is the quicker you get the more it costs... I forgot about the wet tyres for £30 that we may or may not use and will go hard/off if not looked after...sod it who's for racing indoors?? Yeh but then wont you need 50 sets of foam tyres and a tyre truer ?
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Post by saintroeer on Jul 16, 2008 14:27:32 GMT
pete i think youve somewhat argued my point in respect to the brca, i was suggesting, as just one club we are just a very small part and if we raised the point on our own others would have no information so that they could make a decision, therefore the idea maybe something that would be dismissed for review next year!
with respect to not having a level playing field but keeping it, surely the only way of doing that would be through the brca as if they say motors must conform to x-y rules the manufactures would be bound to produce motors to those rules as it would limit there sales opportunities if they didnt. maybe me being simplistic thou!
finally, you are right les in that we should be primarily worried about what goes on at bashley week in week out, and we all thank you, ian, and ian for the time and money you are spending on this issue, it just doesnt stop us from taking the issue further does it?
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Post by issac on Jul 16, 2008 15:31:02 GMT
well i am with les on this
a) i don't run in enough club weekends to complete a club championship. The main thrust of my racing is now aimed at SLCC etc.
B) In the regional racing i do i am using brushless ( except in bad weather when i have one 27T motor available )
C) when i do race at the club all i ask is to be able to use the system my car has. Having tested both BL and BR on my speedo i have noticed a drop in performance when a BR motor is connected to the BL speedo ( this is why i have a wet car with a BR speedo in it ). We all know the 13.5 is too fast at our track, and as i have tested the 15.5 from nosram and blew it up in 4 laps i feel its a waste of money.
D) so far the 17.5 seems slightly slower than our best 27T motors as those who have tested them so far are slower than their best times.This isn't about getting beat or splashing the cash its about ( ie last year i spent nearly £130 on motors ( excluding brushes )for racing this year i have spent £100 ( Total )on two BL motors which should do next year as well ) for me its about coming out to the track and having a bit of fun.
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 16, 2008 15:33:46 GMT
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Post by ukcmf on Jul 16, 2008 16:01:50 GMT
We all know the 13.5 is too fast at our track, and as i have tested the 15.5 from nosram and blew it up in 4 laps i feel its a waste of money. D) so far the 17.5 seems slightly slower than our best 27T motors as those who have tested them so far are slower than their best times.This isn't about getting beat or splashing the cash its about ( ie last year i spent nearly £130 on motors ( excluding brushes )for racing this year i have spent £100 ( Total )on two BL motors which should do next year as well ) for me its about coming out to the track and having a bit of fun. No disrespect intended Ian but you blow everything up....so hardly a fair test. ;D If you'd seen the 17.5 BL racing on Sunday they were very fast.....I have to disagree with the fact that they're slower than our best 27T - not on Sunday they werent. Col
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Post by mattsedgley on Jul 16, 2008 16:24:22 GMT
I for one am a new racer - and over the last few weeks have enjoyed the challenge of skimming a motor - its certainly a different skill!!
In the very near future I'll be out spending my hard earned pennies on a brushless system however i have a few questions! - I was talking to Terry in the shop the other day - and he mentioned how a bonded rotor 13.5 and the £60 nosram speedo are actually roughly the same as 27t cause he ran it at the begining of the year - has anyone else tried this combo?
next question are you people running the 17.5 to within an inch of its life? is it at the top of the performance bracket and coming of near the top of it's temperature bracket also? if it is wouldn't it be better for new racers to run a 13.5 with an agreed FDR to keep the temperature of the motors down??
- before you all start preaching at me about temperatures and FDR I know they don't go hand in hand nor are they universa and yes i know motor temperature can depend on many other factors! :-)
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Post by issac on Jul 16, 2008 17:46:49 GMT
col i think you are getting confused here i said the 17.5 than the best 27T meaning if you look at the times set by each person and conpare them with the time set by their 17.5. les can do 20 laps with his best 27T motor and only 19 with a 17.5 mine is 18 in 300sec with 27T but 18 in 309 sec with 17.5 just becouse les beats everybody with a 17.5 isnt a good comparison if he was to put his best 27T in he still would have won. as matt says the 17.5 are being run to an inch of their life and close to their operating celling so they are unlikely to get any faster until a new generation of motor is available. as for me blowing things up well when you try a new motor at manufacturer recomended FDR and it blows the windings in 4 warmup laps then perhaps the motor was at fault. my point is that the 15.5 is a bonded motor and does not give the same power as the 17.5 motors becouse they are sintered and as far i know only made by two companies at the moment and are not easily rebuildable or being developed.
matt FDR checking is not easy to check unless you know all the car FDR's and wish to stand their checking the cars every meeting.
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Post by keitheroonie on Jul 16, 2008 18:04:53 GMT
Matt I've run the Novak EX 13.5 with the bonded rotor on a Novak GTB speedo, even with a FDR lower than recommended, it wasn't great on top end speed but punch was better. I'd say it was comparable to my 27T's, I did however run it at the Cotswold, which is a very wide open fast track, if it's speed you want, you gotta be sintered
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Post by keitheroonie on Jul 16, 2008 18:45:17 GMT
To add to this already crouded debate, Ollie and myself race for one reason only and thats fun, we don't care if we win loose or draw, as long as we have a laugh. Motor maintenance although interesting, is not enjoyable for me as I have very little time to do it, the only time I do get a chance is on Sundays between races when I should be setting the car up, with a brushless system I can spend more time on car setup and improving my driving skill. Brushed motors are the biggest problem I have. I don't believe an equivilent brushless motor exists for a 27T brushed and I don't think it ever will, so brushless 17.5 runs with brushed 27 in seperate classes at the moment which is perfect, I believe most Racers would run brushless given the choice anyway, so it's only a matter of time before the 27t stock drivers at our club will be in the minority. As are the NiMh users. Brushed Technology is dead long live Brushless ;D
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Post by Barry Staples on Jul 16, 2008 20:51:39 GMT
So is ProStock at Bashley, lets all get 17.5 ;D
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Post by mattsedgley on Jul 16, 2008 22:59:28 GMT
Many interesting points raised and talked through tonight whilst racing - I've certainly learnt a lot of new things about the brushless system -
My only question now is - what's the web addy of that American site that people have been using to purchase their BL gear???
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Post by ukcmf on Jul 17, 2008 5:23:09 GMT
col i think you are getting confused here i said the 17.5 than the best 27T meaning if you look at the times set by each person and conpare them with the time set by their 17.5. les can do 20 laps with his best 27T motor and only 19 with a 17.5 mine is 18 in 300sec with 27T but 18 in 309 sec with 17.5 just becouse les beats everybody with a 17.5 isnt a good comparison if he was to put his best 27T in he still would have won. as matt says the 17.5 are being run to an inch of their life and close to their operating celling so they are unlikely to get any faster until a new generation of motor is available. as for me blowing things up well when you try a new motor at manufacturer recomended FDR and it blows the windings in 4 warmup laps then perhaps the motor was at fault. my point is that the 15.5 is a bonded motor and does not give the same power as the 17.5 motors becouse they are sintered and as far i know only made by two companies at the moment and are not easily rebuildable or being developed. matt FDR checking is not easy to check unless you know all the car FDR's and wish to stand their checking the cars every meeting. Sorry Ian I have to disagree. I was watching the racing & the timings on Sunday....you werent. Col
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Post by lesbaldry on Jul 17, 2008 7:15:18 GMT
Prehaps I should have come last in those finals and most of theses posts may have been on the plus side for the 17.5? ;D All due respects and kiss's to you Col your not a racer. next time I race stock I will use my best 27t and prove a point!..bring a rag to wipe my rubber dust off Dans winscreen with you ;D We all want the fastest motor in our cars regardless of our ability and worry if we dont. New parts/motors/speedos come along that make our previous gear redundant,In the past a new 27t motor that's reported to be faster has popped up half way through a season,we by it because its faster or easier to use,Thats racing,It happens,Its progress!! Now the 17.5 has appeared and I am not saying its the fastest out there quite the opposite,Its easy to use and will level the playing field for all those who want to run them,ie Matt S can race me in a class with the same power! Some say if we all buy 17.5s and the BRCA dont adopt them we will be left with a redundant motor,thats allready happend with 27ts and at the club..Co 27 comes to mind. Should any one buy a 17.5 today and should they become redundant and or not available in thr future as suggested by some ,you will still be quids in copmpared to running a BR 27t motor/s over a 12 month at club level Brushless is here to stay and eventually all will be running them! Over and out Les
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Post by ukcmf on Jul 17, 2008 8:09:55 GMT
yeh yeh
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Post by Matt Haskell on Jul 17, 2008 8:47:47 GMT
Be careful with this Matt, I brough the TC Spec LRP and 13.5 NovakSS from the US for nearly half the cost + shipping and got caught with import tax. During its 5th meeting one of them took out the other and i had no brushless left. Had to rebuy in UK. You only get a 120 day warranty from the US compared to 25years(LRP) over here and you probably wont pay postage and hopefully get it sorted 'if' it goes wrong
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 17, 2008 12:23:12 GMT
[During its 5th meeting one of them took out the other and i had no brushless left. LOL annual cost of brushed motor 30 brushes 30-40 =70 Brushed 2 motors 100 2 ESC 120 = 220 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 17, 2008 12:24:25 GMT
[During its 5th meeting one of them took out the other and i had no brushless left. LOL annual cost of brushed motor 30 brushes 30-40 =70 Brushed 2 motors 100 2 ESC 120 = 220 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D error make that 1 esc = 160
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Post by lesbaldry on Jul 17, 2008 13:21:26 GMT
Blimey Pete .....I totaly give up...there must be an awfull lot of racers out there who are wrong !! ...once apon a time racers doubted Lipos cost's/perfomance too ...someone also said the world was flat and we believed it ;D
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 17, 2008 13:38:34 GMT
Nah its the sky that is round Les Did you never see Capricorn 1? It's all a govnt cover up. Brushless means less engines means less consumer usage of magnets means more magnets available for that secret USA military project to keep the Earth's shifting magnetic field in balance so that we retain gravity at 2. whatever it is, else we all fall off. I did read the other day that is is a good job the earth is actually flat else we would have fallen off by now
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Post by lesbaldry on Jul 17, 2008 15:06:25 GMT
;D ;D ;D...You Pratt Pete.... ;D ;D ;D.....Yes I have seen Capricorn 1....nearly believable too!.....just like brushed are cheaper to run than brushless ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D.....Im starting to believe in fairys too
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Post by Matt Haskell on Jul 17, 2008 16:10:14 GMT
Bored now!
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Post by issac on Jul 17, 2008 16:22:58 GMT
no col i wasn't there
but i have race with a 27T and 17.5 motors and you haven't
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 17, 2008 17:06:48 GMT
;D ;D ;D...You Pratt Pete.... ;D ;D ;D.....Yes I have seen Capricorn 1....nearly believable too!.....just like brushed are cheaper to run than brushless ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D.....Im starting to believe in fairys too Thank God a convert at last
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Post by yellowshark on Jul 17, 2008 17:09:19 GMT
That wasn't meMatt, it was a government agent who taken over my persona. Obviously IF it had of been me you wouldn't be bored would you.
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Post by ukcmf on Jul 18, 2008 5:52:52 GMT
Also very very very very very bored now Dont actually need to have driven an Aston Martin to know its better than driving a HGV................................. Although Mr Lloyd could
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Post by lesbaldry on Jul 18, 2008 6:43:44 GMT
Dont actually need to have driven an Aston Martin to know its better than driving a HGV................................. Although Mr Lloyd could ......good comparison...same fuel consumption,one's out of the Ark the others modern tech,one needs heavy equipment to maintain the other dont,but most importantly ones smooth,fun to drive and easier to use ;D ;D ;D For those who are convinced the 17.5 is faster than a good 27t,borrow mine and run it in the next few SLCC meets,compare your speed to the fastest BRed 27t and then tell me they are faster??...I will wager any amount and the motor they are not.....HMMMMM any one up for this chalange??..you WILL get your doors blown off by a well preped 27t!! This is what forums are about...to air your views,get irritated,learn,pass judgment,keep your grey matter working but most of all HAVE FUN with your friends!!!....keep our STRONG team spirit up chaps
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