27T and 17.5 equality

[yellowshark]

Running the 17.5s in with 27Ts on Sunday was interesting. Les with his 17.5 won the 1st 2 finals (oh what a surprise ) but he was kept honest. Craig won the 3rd but Les was suffering from slime on his tyres (LOL thought that was meant to improve grip Les) and was starting to reel Craig in when he crashed . Ian posted a 15.9 and Chris a 16.01. Les FTD (only looked at finals) 15.59

I think it was Mark who made a comment that he thought Les was slower on the straight but Les and Craig were running side by side during early practice and there did not seem to be anything between them on the straight – no idea if Les changed gearing during the day?

No idea how hard Les was trying but he only just led Dan and Craig over the finish line in F2

I don’t know whether the 17.5 guys have got their gearing sorted yet, which I suppose could change the position but it looks thumbs up at the moment. What do the 17.5 guys think?

[ukcmf]

Lloydy was catching Dan in that last final, and although I hate to say it he hasnt been in that position for a long while......Dan wasnt quite up to par but those 17.5 are def fast - in the right hands.

[Simon Crabb]

From what I saw it was very even all round between 17.5s and 27T. Actual speed differences were minimal, I 'sensed' Craig's car was a little quicker that Les', but it was barely measurable, certainly not enough to worry about.

Fingers crossed we've found the right comparable stock comparable now, and fingers crossed even more that the BRCA (and hence series organisers) choose 3 classes: stock (27T+17.5max), pro stock (19T+10.5max) and mod (unlimited? who knows in lipo-land! (and who cares at 99% of club level, really?)). After a year of shake-out it would be nice to know where we are as we enter the next chapter.

[saintroeer]

maybe now we should start sharing our testing of the 17.5 brushless with other clubs so that it can be tried on other tracks so as to see if it is the same everywhere.?

[ukcmf]

Jul 14, 2008 16:43:36 GMT Simon Crabb said:

From what I saw it was very even all round between 17.5s and 27T. Actual speed differences were minimal, I 'sensed' Craig's car was a little quicker that Les', but it was barely measurable, certainly not enough to worry about.

Fingers crossed we've found the right comparable stock comparable now, and fingers crossed even more that the BRCA (and hence series organisers) choose 3 classes: stock (27T+17.5max), pro stock (19T+10.5max) and mod (unlimited? who knows in lipo-land! (and who cares at 99% of club level, really?)). After a year of shake-out it would be nice to know where we are as we enter the next chapter.

Ok so where do you put 13.5 BL....its better on some tracks than others

[ukcmf]

Jul 14, 2008 17:16:30 GMT saintroeer said:

maybe now we should start sharing our testing of the 17.5 brushless with other clubs so that it can be tried on other tracks so as to see if it is the same everywhere.?

I think alot more testings needed and on alot more tracks.......IMHO

[lesbaldry]

I certainly was'nt "sand baggin" and was pushing the 17.5 to its limit(I had too !!,those two nippers are getting too quick )for the LRP a FDR OF 3.55 seems to be the sweet spot for our track and I think Chriss's Novak was close to this FDR, but I would still like to test Ians Speed Pasion as I think this may be the motor that is user friendly due to its prefered FDR.

Sunday I feel was a fair test for the LRP as I used what I call an average/used car tyre combo,Yes the 17.5 did lack a little in top end and I certainly have faster brushed motors, but It was a pleasure to use and very smooth to drive "a motor that any one could enjoy"

Personaly for next year Im looking at just two motors and one speedo for all my racing,17.5 for club meets and the 13.5 for the serious stuff..that make economic sence to me!!

A lap time of 19.006 for me is compedative at our track and prehaps a tight car and new rubber and an elusive 20 lapper could be on the cards??

[yellowshark]

I don't know anything about this technology Les but spotted you said 13.5 for next year. If and maybe that is a big if, the BRCA were to get behind the 17.5, with prostock being 10.5, where does the 13.5 fit? IE if ther BRCA were to come out on the side of 17.5 then one might expect the SLCC etc and indeed clubs to come in line. Are our brushless guys running 13.5 or 10.5 in prostock club/RRC meetings?

BTW tried baking the slime on Saturday night - so we had consistent tyres from the startline ;D but not sure if overall grip was as good other method.

[lesbaldry]

Yes Pete,13.5!!...This is a personal choice..for one should I want to run Pro stock/13.5 at club days I feel the present 13.5 at our track is only marginly slower than a 10.5 ,the 13.5 is smoother to drive and saves wear on thr transmition/tires??...two,and seriously!! Im not getting any youger and I cant react to the 10.5s power on our track,If I run a 10.5 next year it will be at a track that suits me.

Only time will tell if SLCC/STCC adopt 17.5s as stock? It may be wise too??(follow the US)

You older chaps should agree with this, a 10.5 is as fast as a 14x2 a few years ago with twice the turque??...I like to get a chance to think between crashes ;D

[Mark Townsend]

I agree with Adam we need to see what other clubs are finding out with their classes. It's no good us adopting classes that no-one else does. While 17.5 may be ideal for us, probably not for Cotswolds. Unless you can gear it at 1.7!

It does look like the US may adopt 17.5 as a class (not necessarily with 27BR equivalence) so you can bet your life loads will start appearing from lots of companies. Conversely if you pick a less popular wind (13.5 or 15.5) you may be limited by supply. For example 23 turn is huge in Japan but no-one sells 23 turn motors in the US or the UK, unfortunately we're dictated to by the US and it's manufacturers.

10.5 is quick but I really enjoyed it on Sunday. Barry shot off into the distance in one final and it was great to have a little too much power on tap to try pushing yourself to catch him up. I think (JMHO) in stock, one mistake and it's race over. So for me 10.5 is great. Smoother, better drivers (who have Mick setting up their car ) can make the absolute best from 13.5 and make it really interesting racing. Something i've missed from racing for a long time. Nice to see 6 prostock entries, lets have a few more next week.

Mark

[lesbaldry]

I dont give a squishy fig what motors the STCC/SLCC adopt next year ,I'll slot into a class that suits my ability/pocket...but lets not get sIde tracked too far!..I thought the idea of the 17.5 was to find a BL stock fair/agro free motor that club members can run who have brusless set up's,for reasons we have all debated,YAWN,YAWN,YAWN

[yellowshark]

Excellent post Les. I guess we need to ensure we all have the same agenda here. I must confess I think my thinking has been influenced by what the various series will do and maybe you are right (I'm not sure) that we should just be focussed on getting the entry level class sorted for brushless technology for SHMCC.

One potential division arises though; we run 27T from the BRCA approved list, as we do 19T and 13.5 (a good thing), if the BRCA does not publish a 17.5 list.....??

[saintroeer]

i understand you point les but dont necessarily agree with the sentiment.

pete theres no reason why what we are doing has to be mutually exclusive especially as we do generally use the brca list for approved motors etc..(rrc excluded). we can of course make our own club series run to what ever rules our committee decide and the brca rules may be used as guidelines but it takes very little more effort to use message boards and forums such as this to involve others in the decisions and we may find there testing results useful in our own decision making.

i think we all agree that as a club we could make it easier for new members to get involved with our club and that by leveling the playing field everyone will benefit, but this is not just a shmcc issue is an rc issue and as such involving other clubs and broadening the issue would reap benefits, as members of the brca we all have influence over the rules that are brought in each year, to mention one, would we not be happy if, as with brushed motors a decision was made with regard to motor rules and price limits were brought in for an approved brushless motor list?

[yellowshark]

Adam I wasn't suggesting mutual exclusivity. We don't need to level the playing field, it is level; ie 27T using BRCA listed only motors which have to meet a specification and are homologated. The need is not getting a level PF, it is keeping it.
My point, perhaps somewhat veiled, was what do we do if 17.5s are not homologated. What if you go out next Feb with your shining new 17.5 and Keith whops you by a lap and a half with his. Is that because he is better or because he has bought a 17.5 that does not conform to spec, which of course it won't because there isn't one. So you have to go out and spend another £60 to get one. Then he spends another £60 because he has found one with new technology and you are whopped again, and so on.

We don't "generally" stick to BRCA rules, we do stick to BRCA rules. RRC is an externally sponsored championship and the sponsor decides the rules (I think - happy to be corrected . What we are doing is commendable, we are trying to take this current "issue" forward and find a solution for 2009. And yes you are right if you want the sport to move in a general direction then tart lobbying. Get on to Racechat, onto the BRCA section or whatever and start making points and asking questions. Get the debate going, I have seen nothing on Racechat about this .

But the BRCA rules on Stock class are clear and we need to tread with caution if we think (do we?) that we want to follow some of them but not all.

[lesbaldry]

The BRCA and certain governing bodys are somewhat rear ward thinking regarding motors in my view.Chose a spec/class/wind or what ever you want to call it and let the drivers sort it out! after all we are the ones who use/test them?..this way may open the flood gate some but its the only way to find out whats best,or do we all stagnate "heads in the sand"

Regarding our dilema with the 17.5s.let us do more testing amongst ourselves and be sure or our findings then chat to other clubs?..17.5s to me have shown to be a good equal on certain tracks,ours and Yoevils and as Mark stated they may fail on larger tracks??...But please lets not get away from the point that we are just trieing to find a good cheap replacement for a brushed 27 for ease of use for US!!

Too me a wind rating is a wast of time for BLs as the power output differs on all makes,the only true way to govern a power class is to rate and stick too Wattage output rather than a wind rating??, manufactures need to get together and have strict guide lines ...at the moment "Smith" motors are trieing to make there 10.5 faster than "Jones"motors using the 10.5 wind lable as a cover??...Just my thoughts LOL

[ukcmf]

Everyone appears to be settled on testing the new 17.5 BL, whats the next sized motor in either direction 15.5 & ? Should we be doing more testing with them ?

Col

[Mark Townsend]

18.5 but they're used for crawling.

I didn't say they'd (17.5) fail but just not prove popular at a large track like Cotswolds. 10 seconds on the straight?

It's fine that we're trying 17.5 at the club and may prove superb, but what happens if they're not taken up at a higher level (BRCA, SLCC, STCC etc) and you want to enter? It means buying another motor to enter a bigger series.

Pete's absolutely correct, get lobbying the BRCA, put it up for proposal at the AGM. But make sure they do what you want them to do in terms of speed, enjoyment and drivability.

[lesbaldry]

[quote author=markt board=general thread=153 post=1077

It's fine that we're trying 17.5 at the club and may prove superb, but what happens if they're not taken up at a higher level (BRCA, SLCC, STCC etc) and you want to enter? It means buying another motor to enter a bigger series.





[/quote]

Dont care!! I and others dont want to purchace more 27ts,have the agro and hassel that goes with them just to run at club meets that are 95% of our running!!!

Too run over the autum/winter period and be compedative is at least 1 or 2 motors plus skims plus brushes plus agro .etc.etc.etc that could =£100 plus

17.5 imported from the US ,NO AGRO, FIT AND FORGET =£50 ,no contest for 95% of my racing!!!

[ukcmf]

Jul 16, 2008 9:16:31 GMT @lesbaldry said:

[quote author=markt board=general thread=153 post=1077

It's fine that we're trying 17.5 at the club and may prove superb, but what happens if they're not taken up at a higher level (BRCA, SLCC, STCC etc) and you want to enter? It means buying another motor to enter a bigger series.

Dont care!! I and others dont want to purchace more 27ts,have the agro and hassel that goes with them just to run at club meets that are 95% of our running!!!

Too run over the autum/winter period and be compedative is at least 1 or 2 motors plus skims plus brushes plus agro .etc.etc.etc that could =£100 plus

17.5 imported from the US ,NO AGRO, FIT AND FORGET =£50 ,no contest for 95% of my racing!!![/quote]

Can I ask what you're planning to do or proposing that new members do when they want to race and its damp/wet.....as far as Im aware you cant run BL in the damp/wet without risking alot of expense. Seeing as we live in the UK - a cold damp country known for its rain for more than half the year you'd/they'd have to stay home.

Going back to 18.5 BL has anyone tried them in a TC?

I think as a commitee picking a motor for club use that wasnt compatible with other series ie STCC, SLCC BRCA would be a mistake and we'd be neglecting our members....not everyone had bottomless pockets and can afford to fork out for two or three different types of motors to run in different series, espec if we host rounds of that series at our own track. Its bad enough now having to fork out for different tyres compounds.

Col

[yellowshark]

I will bump into (deliberately) some BRCA officials at the Juniors on Saturday/Sunday and start lobbying.

My pitch, subject to other suggestions on this forum will be

Stock has to embrace brushed technology
Differing views prevail and a lead from the BRCA is crucial/beneficial/will smooth the way
Local testing of 17.5 is looking promising albeit not concluded yet
Concern over larger open tracks

You guys need to get onto Racechat though to introduce the debate and reinforce the message. ;D

[lesbaldry]

Jul 16, 2008 9:27:36 GMT @ukcmf said:

Jul 16, 2008 9:16:31 GMT @lesbaldry said:

[quote author=markt board=general thread=153 post=1
Can I ask what you're planning to do or proposing that new members do when they want to race and its damp/wet.....as far as Im aware you cant run BL in the damp/wet without risking alot of expense. Seeing as we live in the UK - a cold damp country known for its rain for more than half the year you'd/they'd have to stay home.



Col

I cant remember the last time any club member raced in standing water on a club day can you?? we all go home regardless of motor type....Damp tracks are no prob for either motor as long as appropreate measures are taken!!...I would imagin any of our brusless members hold back a brushed motor for those wet SLCC days,plus I would'nt advise any new driver to run in standing water regardless of motor type

Correct me if I am wrong but I can only recal two totaly wet Slcc meets over the past two seasons, Costwolds this year that was canceled and S/hampton last year??

[ukcmf]

Jul 16, 2008 9:32:54 GMT yellowshark said:

I will bump into (deliberately) some BRCA officials at the Juniors on Saturday/Sunday and start lobbying.

Pete I think you'd be wasting your breath...we tried that at the NEC in Jan ref Lipos being allowed at the BRCA Juniors.....Derek spent most of two days demoing the the new shiney Trackpower Lipos & charger to all and sundry inc BRCA officals, UK, Euro & world champs......didnt make the slightest bit of difference. But as you know they changed the rules two weeks ago, right before the event in question.

Col

[ukcmf]

Jul 16, 2008 9:47:34 GMT @lesbaldry said:

Jul 16, 2008 9:27:36 GMT @ukcmf said:

Jul 16, 2008 9:16:31 GMT @lesbaldry said:

[quote author=markt board=general thread=153 post=1
Can I ask what you're planning to do or proposing that new members do when they want to race and its damp/wet.....as far as Im aware you cant run BL in the damp/wet without risking alot of expense. Seeing as we live in the UK - a cold damp country known for its rain for more than half the year you'd/they'd have to stay home.



Col

I cant remember the last time any club member raced in standing water on a club day can you?? we all go home regardless of motor type....Damp tracks are no prob for either motor as long as appropreate measures are taken!!...I would imagin any of our brusless members hold back a brushed motor for those wet SLCC days,plus I would'nt advise any new driver to run in standing water regardless of motor type

Ah but we do do, and have done. At the club and at the SLCC.

So you'd recommend BL members to have both - brushed and brushless motors......isnt that defeating the object....more expense ...how do you explain that to a newbee....if you want be competative you have to have the newest top of the range BL (in whatever class), plus if we dont race to BRCA or STCC/ SLCC standard you'll have to buy another motor to take part in those, oh and if you want to run in the damp/wet (apparently even wet grass will cause things to blow), you'll need a different motor/brushes/comm lathe as well.

Mmmm


Col

[Matt Haskell]

why are peope trying to stop/hamper the use of brushless?

Brushed motors are going......FACT!
Just like ni-cds!

Lipo's were not BRCA legal, yet people still bought them.
(not exactly cheap - BUT BETTER IN THE LONG RUN!

We are all very lucky that people like Les and Ian are spending there own hard earned to find a comparable motor that may not even be correct!
And lets not forget, Les normally runs 10.5 so can quite easily win in 27t or 17.5!

We are all happy to take les's advice with set-up, gearing etc, yet completely dis-regard his opinions on brushless......doesnt seem quite fair to me.

It doesnt seem to be the 'ACTUAL' racer who are holding on to the brushed motors, but the pit crews/financee.

If you had to set-up the car, skim, race, marshall, set-up, skim, race marshall.........you would ditch the brushed in no time.

i have ordered a 17.5 and will be running it in a couple of weeks, so we will see how it goes.

This post is not aimed directly at anyone or to offend, just my personal opinions.

[ukcmf]

Jul 16, 2008 11:28:56 GMT Matt Haskell said:

why are peope trying to stop/hamper the use of brushless?

Brushed motors are going......FACT!
Just like ni-cds!

Lipo's were not BRCA legal, yet people still bought them.
(not exactly cheap - BUT BETTER IN THE LONG RUN!

We are all very lucky that people like Les and Ian are spending there own hard earned to find a comparable motor that may not even be correct!
And lets not forget, Les normally runs 10.5 so can quite easily win in 27t or 17.5!

We are all happy to take les's advice with set-up, gearing etc, yet completely dis-regard his opinions on brushless......doesnt seem quite fair to me.

It doesnt seem to be the 'ACTUAL' racer who are holding on to the brushed motors, but the pit crews/financee.

If you had to set-up the car, skim, race, marshall, set-up, skim, race marshall.........you would ditch the brushed in no time.

i have ordered a 17.5 and will be running it in a couple of weeks, so we will see how it goes.

This post is not aimed directly at anyone or to offend, just my personal opinions.

Matt any decisions as to what to race next year will be fully and frankly discussed by all interested club members - not just the few that use this forum - at the club AGM at the end of the year. No ones disregarding Les's opinion - its very valuable...but as always theres more than one side to everything.
Last year we had a few vocal members who wanted to run 13.5 BL in with stock, at the AGM the majority took the decision to run it in a pro-stock class with 10.5 BL & 19T BR while BL was evaluated further, for us this appears to have been the right way to go.
If you have stong feelings either way with BL why not come to the AGM at the end of the year and make those feelings heard.

Col

[Matt Haskell]

At the AGM last year it was also agreed to have a second mid-season meeting.

What would be the easiest way to arrange that?

[ukcmf]

Jul 16, 2008 11:45:21 GMT Matt Haskell said:

At the AGM last year it was also agreed to have a second mid-season meeting.

What would be the easiest way to arrange that?

Do you mean mid-year AGM? If so I dont reacall that and there doesnt appear to be anything in the minutes.

If you wish to call an EGM then I suggest you email or PM all the current commitee members stating your reasons for wanting to call the meeting.

If your concerns are 17.5BL it was discussed at the last committee meeting a few weeks ago and it was decided until the AGM at the end of the year to allow it to run in with Stock but as F2 for club meetings, and to run as a different class in the Reality Cup (as happened on Sunday).

Col

[lesbaldry]

I can understand all the comments and concerns from both the experianced and inexperienced racers and non racers and LOL to you all.....But "blimey" some are absolutly missing the point seriously here.

I hope I speak for all those who have purchased a 17.5 here!!..I/we dont give a "flying" what motors the BRCA adopt next year"YES NEXT YEAR!!"....I think we all realise the 17.5 would be a good entry level BL with the only expence of ONE other motor should a new racer deside to race the SLCC(17.5 can be used in the SLCC and has been).All we are asking is if the club will allow them to run along side 27t...Wet,dry,SLCC,BTCC.BRCA,new members,old members,18.5s,cheap,expensive,Lipo's,Laythes,brushes and Dyno's,and my dogs personal moments, who gives a stuff!!...Wot u say chaps??

There, got that of my chest

Ps, box of motor cleaner ordered Col.

Should the club allow 17.5s three makes are been tested and those who may want to buy will benefit and save money from the knowlege

[ukcmf]

Jul 16, 2008 12:22:09 GMT @lesbaldry said:

Ps, box of motor cleaner ordered Col.

Thanks Les

Col

[ukcmf]

OK......committee member hat off...personal hat on........

I reckon that Les, Ian, Mark, Rob etc are fed up with the likes of Dan & Craig and now young Simon beating them and out qualifying them that they're just throwing money at it so they regain the top spot.....that is until Craig & Dan splash the cash and do the same.

Now you BL guys have nothing to do during a club meeting lets see you doing some track maintainance.


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