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Post by Reuben on Mar 4, 2010 23:43:52 GMT
haha yeh. as a man who understands software - you will agree with me that giving the power of software to certain people is going to be bad news for esc - imagine all those people who are gona disconnect wrong and fubar their speedo. Tip - not as much beer this SLCC people, you may do something silly with the software aswell as the person on your left
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 5, 2010 0:11:23 GMT
LOL Reuben, no good looking for my support,I'm the one who burnt out his expensive VFS-1 in the pits when he reversed the polarity on his battery connections (derh where's that smoke coming from then) and setup the the car for an important SLCC race with a shock upside down . I am sure you are are right, although there is that strange thing called an instruction manual How about a cup for the first person to blow up his sooper dooper esc on the bench and take out his laptop at the same time; will need to be a big one to catch the tears ;D
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Post by lesbaldry on Mar 5, 2010 7:59:13 GMT
;D Been on it all week Les, the only way to make sense of this stuff Ive been tempted Pete........we are all confused now let alone when we start playing with them!.....I think I might be avoiding profiling and stick to the latest push and play type and let a few others "phut" their new toys first.....still it was a good "debate"
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 5, 2010 12:41:08 GMT
It was Les As you said at the start, making it work for the club is the important point
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Post by lesbaldry on Mar 5, 2010 13:23:14 GMT
We can all be guilty of been speed freaks now and then,wanting the fastest missile between apex's,but to me this ain't racing,its all about lines,flow and carrying speed correctly within your present ability...the daftness of us clubbies running mods to alleviate the current esc cost wars astounds me! most of us cant even get the best out of or handle a 10.5?! Its obvious now to some the new weight along with this new esc tech has made the 13.5 as fast as a 10.5/2nd gen esc at 1500gm. How do we slow the car down? various ways have been debated on other forums but most seem to have come to the same conclusion of lower power motors per class much like the US/ROAR is running at the moment. 17.5,13.5 anything else is Mod,even 21.5 has been discussed as a stock entry level?? We at SHMCC tried to promote 17.5 as "the new stock class" but were shot down by many all over the country as been toooo slow.I find this very strange due to the popularity of 27t at most clubs and at National level a few years ago We have proved the 17.5 started out as fast as any 27t was. Later it became even faster with the introduction of the fly timing ESC's. Well the grape vine seems to favor the 17.5 as the new stock class due to the current speed increase (it never was slow in the first place) .....So dare I say it,yes I will!! from all of us at SHMCC who help promote the 17.5 and saw this crisis coming. ......WE TOLD YOU SO!!!!
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Post by darrenoakley on Mar 5, 2010 17:03:45 GMT
I would be quit happy running 21.5 motor. Personally 17.5 is way fast enough for me. 21.5 would allow more thinking time to hone those cornering techniques and race lines. I turned the timing up on duo 2 on wed night to see what difference it made. Yes I got one more lap but it was hard work and not as enjoyable and the lines I was driving were all over the place. Anyone got a 21.5 for sale ?
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Post by Martin Young on Mar 5, 2010 17:19:57 GMT
We can all be guilty of been speed freaks now and then,wanting the fastest missile between apex's,but to me this ain't racing,its all about lines,flow and carrying speed correctly within your present ability...the daftness of us clubbies running mods to alleviate the current esc cost wars astounds me! most of us cant even get the best out of or handle a 10.5?! Its obvious now to some the new weight along with this new esc tech has made the 13.5 as fast as a 10.5/2nd gen esc at 1500gm. How do we slow the car down? I have been reading this thread (and the Rcracechat one) with interest. History is definitely repeating itself for sure, i for one welcomed the brushless and lipo era as i thought it would help level the playing field for some of us who don't won't too (or can't afford too) buy the latest technology, how wrong was I!! . The fact remains the more money you are willing to spend in stock spec class the faster you potentially will go. Without doubt 17.5 (or even now 21.5) is a good start for beginners (having two kids the need for a class like this is a must), but that said i dint think you will ever stop the drive for that 'edge' when racing a stock spec class and IMO this usually comes from the more experienced drivers not the beginners! Once again IMO there is no answer for this, it is just Life!!! Myself, Lucas and Robert all run old chassis with relatively old electrics but still manage to have fun (We didn't get the Budget Racing name for nothing you know). I for one gain far more enjoyment (and i know I'm not the only one) from having a good bumper to bumper race with another competitor than any win has ever given me (and before anyone else say's it, over the years I must have won at least one race). I personally just want some fun close racing with as little maintenance as possible and that's what stock for me is about. If you want to win then prepare your bank balance or credit cards accordingly ;D If you want to have fun you don't need to spend a fortune. Indoors (on our track) i run a Yokomo BD (at least three years old, it was actually second hand when i bought it) and up until very recently ran a Novak GTB (Gen 1 speedo), this is still 98% as quick other cars out there with the same turn motor. Unfortunately outdoors the advancing type esc give an advantage especially the longer the straight but Ian has run a non advancing speedo at Bashley and due to the unique nature of the track still comes out OK against the next gen speedo's. This next generation speedo issue is going to be far worse at other tracks so for the clubbies at Bashley IMO its not all doom and gloom. I would like to see if other clubs adopt a (more) open class with F1, F2 type dividers whether it will work i just don't know but i think Chris G is right in one way its the search for the 'edge' in the stock class that's driving the costs up. If i ran mod i would have to limit the motor turn rating and as such could run older electrics without penalty, but i wouldn't be able to keep up with the wear and tear (and the cost associated with it) that what stock is about for me and that's why i run 17.5 / 13.5. ;D I guess opinion will remain divided.
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Post by Reuben on Mar 5, 2010 17:50:29 GMT
do you not think 21.5 could be a little to-slow? has anyone seen one in action?
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Post by darrenoakley on Mar 5, 2010 18:09:05 GMT
Surely with the weight change there wouldn't be that much diffrence to before. And those that wanted to go faster could use 17.5. For me the 21.5 would be more of a control exercise than a speed one. But I understand alot of you faster drivers it would maybe not apeal to.It would make racing close though. When i first started not too long ago there was nearly always a 13.5 and 17.5 class on a wed night but its not often we see a 13.5 indoors now. Maybe 21.5 just indoors then ? Only my opinion though or are we going a little off topic
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Post by Martin Young on Mar 5, 2010 18:24:12 GMT
do you not think 21.5 could be a little to-slow? has anyone seen one in action? I'll bet it would be faster than a 27T brushed used to be at 1500gms I haven't run outdoors since the weight drop so i don't know how fast a 17.5 is at the moment let alone a 21.5!!
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 5, 2010 19:53:05 GMT
Oh blast I thought this thread has finished…
Close fun racing is not the domain of 17.5, you get with 13.5 and 10.5 – can’t comment on Mod
If people are driving cars they can’t control then the solution is not to penalise those that can
Am I the only person in the World who controls the speed of the car by turning down the throttle EPA on the transmitter
Am I the only person in the world who has the sense to do this (by whatever method) so his son can control the car, stay on the tarmac and have fun.
Forget about new rules etc etc. Its down to the individual to work out whether he or she is ready to step up to the next mark and whether they should spend more money (on whatever) to go faster.
We are in danger of turning into the nanny state that the current government has taken us to (and to avoid any non intentional conflict) and no doubt the other mob would have done too .
I concede on the point that we have to control costs and try to ensure there is a reasonably (word used deliberately) level playing field that the majority can buy into.
Absolutely no offence intended to anyone who tales some, that is just my view on life
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Post by oldtimeracer on Mar 5, 2010 21:51:46 GMT
Oooooooohhhhhhhhhhh this is getting exciting !!!!!
What will be will be. Those that want to go for the latest kit will do so and those (like me) that still enjoy the less expensive option and the close racing with those others who also stay with old kit, will not.
Nothing wrong with either camp as far as I can see.
Lets not get carried away with all this. The costs of stock racing will no doubt kill it or make it a very exclusive club at some point in the future but that is the nature of progressive technology.
We will all race in the classes that suit both our ability and budget as we always have.
I have no idea what the answer is or even if we need to find one to be honest. At least we have something to discuss and moan about. If it was not this it would be something else.
Who knows what the future holds and frankly who cares. I just want to have fun and that will still happen whatever as it will with the rest of you. How we achieve that fun is down to individuals and always will be.
Don't knock it, enjoy it. ;D ;D
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Post by darrenoakley on Mar 5, 2010 23:11:14 GMT
Am I the only person in the World who controls the speed of the car by turning down the throttle EPA on the transmitter Am I the only person in the world who has the sense to do this (by whatever method) so his son can control the car, stay on the tarmac and have fun Surly there must be at least one more person in the whole world
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 6, 2010 19:34:04 GMT
Let's hope so Darren ;D Talking of rising costs, I have a new XRAY alu diff in the pit bag, bought some time last year, price sticker is £29. Today's price is £38
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 6, 2010 19:44:42 GMT
Oooooooohhhhhhhhhhh this is getting exciting !!!!! What will be will be. Those that want to go for the latest kit will do so and those (like me) that still enjoy the less expensive option and the close racing with those others who also stay with old kit, will not. Nothing wrong with either camp as far as I can see. Lets not get carried away with all this. The costs of stock racing will no doubt kill it or make it a very exclusive club at some point in the future but that is the nature of progressive technology. We will all race in the classes that suit both our ability and budget as we always have. I have no idea what the answer is or even if we need to find one to be honest. At least we have something to discuss and moan about. If it was not this it would be something else. Who knows what the future holds and frankly who cares. I just want to have fun and that will still happen whatever as it will with the rest of you. How we achieve that fun is down to individuals and always will be. Don't knock it, enjoy it. ;D ;D Good summary Ian. You should have seen the beam on Craig's face when we fired up the 13.5 this evening - trouble is I can't afford a new diff now . Receiver will be there tomorrow
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Post by lesbaldry on Mar 7, 2010 19:11:39 GMT
Bloody hell lads I read some of the coments from those experianced and those who are not and Im astounded. For those who have never compeeted at a reasonable level with brushed and Nicads, trust me this little moan over speed and costs is pathetic compared to what we had to do to "be fast in the past"....I wont bore with the details, but the time spent and expence would make your eyes water...with BL/Lipo's you've never had it so good..Fact!! those days not only had the current speedo wars(history repeating) but there was motor and cell wars at the same time to contend with....oh yes I forgot, and no contole tyre was inforced or the amount used. Since the introduction of Brushless motors and the demise of 27t at national level our hobby has IMPORTANTLY missed out on a true stock class that all can enjoy...There is only one governing body to blame for that
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Post by mattsedgley on Mar 7, 2010 19:29:11 GMT
Good summary Ian. You should have seen the beam on Craig's face when we fired up the 13.5 this evening - trouble is I can't afford a new diff now . Receiver will be there tomorrow Sell the new speed Pete - Pinky pantsman Craig needs some new trousers before you go any faster!
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Post by lesbaldry on Mar 7, 2010 19:43:32 GMT
Oh blast I thought this thread has finished… Close fun racing is not the domain of 17.5, you get with 13.5 and 10.5 – can’t comment on Mod If people are driving cars they can’t control then the solution is not to penalise those that can Am I the only person in the World who controls the speed of the car by turning down the throttle EPA on the transmitter Am I the only person in the world who has the sense to do this (by whatever method) so his son can control the car, stay on the tarmac and have fun. Pick up a trany and car Pete,do a few laps round bashers then try and compeet in a regional series,you may take a different veiw when you get punted out by some numpty with too much power and no brain!
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 8, 2010 0:18:41 GMT
We ran our Tekin RS for the first time today. We used a team driver setup and an FDR suggested by Graham. Due to late arrival we stuck a set of wets on and stopped every 5 laps during Q1 to check the temps – which were fine 35-40. For Q2 we added a tooth on the pinion and again stopped regularly to check the temps, no change. The extra tooth had quietened the rear a tad on corner exit. Both runs the car had handled fine in terms of the power train apart from the turbo which didn’t seem to be very effective. But last night I realised I hadn’t synched the transmitter to the Esc and I had rushed it before leaving home in the morning and suspected I had not done it properly and that was probably the cause – the Tekin turbo comes in after a chosen time of full throttle – and it was. For Q3 we also added .1 sec delay on the turbo as it was coming in right on the apex to the straight and causing Craig bit of a problem. Q3 was fine as was F1, apart from Graham just seemed to have a bit more nitrous punch on the straight. So for F2 we took a chance, dropped that tooth back on the pinion, dropped the turbo delay back to where it had been and IE for Q1 and pushed the turbo timing just a small bit. All the difference in the World – it was fun taking Jamie on the outside of corner 1 So out of the box so to speak it was fine; a minor bit of fettling, during a championship meeting not during practice, had it singing. A few elongated Saturday’s would get more but for us it’s time to focus on the 10.5.
My conclusion is these ESC’s are no more complicated than the others to get a decent club setup; the same adage applies. Seek help on a starting position from a local driver. Accept that to get the best for you and your engine you will want to modify the settings Make one small change at a time. Check to your temps regularly Yup we cheated on the above during F2 BUT the setting we went back to before adding the timing to the turbo had given us 35-40 degrees and the timing addition was very small and I judged, even though these things are exponential , that not stopping to check the temp was small risk given the headroom on the temp and the minor addition to timing on turbo, ie only coming in on the straight. So if you need a new ESC don’t be afraid; with downloadable firmware they may turn out cheaper in the long run. Do you need one; well the way Jamie drove in F3 no you don’t!
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Post by Reuben on Mar 11, 2010 12:30:26 GMT
Just spotted this on the Newbury Forum, it looks like they are holding a EGM to address a number of points at the club, interestingly this is the first point:
1a) Drop the 10.5 class Proposer: Kevin Tombeur - Seconder: Tim Cartwright
We haven't had much interest in 10.5 for a few months, and it's not clear to people whether it will run. With the latest generation of advanced timing speed controllers 13.5 is pretty fast and there is no real need for 10.5
Will more clubs follow suit? I know we dont run 10.5 for reality cup, but allow 10.5 to run in with our 13.5's but for seperate champs.... its 10.5 TC dead at club level?
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Post by lesbaldry on Mar 11, 2010 13:15:35 GMT
Will more clubs follow suit? I know we dont run 10.5 for reality cup, but allow 10.5 to run in with our 13.5's but for seperate champs.... its 10.5 TC dead at club level? Our club level Reubs?? depends on the members,enough to hold a heat??there might be some that still enjoy it plus we may have guests for practice ..just my thoughts 10.5 at regional series is seeing an entry drop this year already. As was predicted all classes will be faster this year, the new gen speedo's have just compacted the problem! after all who at club level wants to run what is just as fast if not punchier than a 10/12t mod was a few years ago. Its a shame us Brits are a bit slow on the uptake.Dare I mention ROAR's ruleing again...Listen up BRCA,start thinking about the important clubman Some are even saying the new gen 13.5 combos are as fast as 10.5 2nd gen gear. Personaly I intended to drop 10.5 this year(a little too quick for me to be fun) and consentrate on 13.5 but buy looking at the speed of them ill be taking a real close look at the 17.5 class for my regional series and at club level.
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 11, 2010 13:48:19 GMT
Some are even saying the new gen 13.5 combos are as fast as 10.5 2nd gen gear. I don't think there is any doubt Les. The other week Graham ran a 14.40 with his 13.5 combo. That is the same time (might have been 14.45) that Craig set in the SLCC finals last year and it was the 2nd fastest time set in the 10.5 finals. And that is ignoring the point that Craig set his time in ideal conditions whereas Grahm's conditons were not! On Sunday Graham set a 15.06, same setup different track conditions and Craig did a 15.16. Craig's view during the the day was that 13.5 + Tekin was faster than the 10.5 + Pearl. BUT I do not think Jamie was very far away either and he was running a "standard" ESC; as we always felt there has never been that much difference on our track between the two engines. Jamie looked faster out of the corners to me. That could be better driving or car handling. Equally we only had a paltrey 3 tuning runs and I think it is reasonable to expect that more tuning will enhance the perfomance and maybe that gap out of the corners will disappear.
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 11, 2010 13:58:51 GMT
Some things are self prophesying Reuben. If you drop the National Pro-Stock class from club competitions there won't be any interest will there? There were only 22 drivers who entered Pro-stock in Reality Cup last year so it was obviously a good decison to drop the class this year with so little interest and keep the Eco class which had a substantial 12 driveres entered. And it saves on trophies too
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 11, 2010 17:29:16 GMT
Some are even saying the new gen 13.5 combos are as fast as 10.5 2nd gen gear. ... BUT I do not think Jamie was very far away either and he was running a "standard" ESC; as we always felt there has never been that much difference on our track between the two engines. . What I should have added was... that whilst a 13.5 with a Gen 3 might be faster, as we have already said, it is how you drive too that counts. Indeed in F3 the Gen 2 ESCs came 1st and 2nd and the Gen 3 ESCs came 3rd and 4th.
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Post by mattsedgley on Mar 11, 2010 18:38:41 GMT
Some things are self prophesying Reuben. If you drop the National Pro-Stock class from club competitions there won't be any interest will there? There were only 22 drivers who entered Pro-stock in Reality Cup last year so it was obviously a good decison to drop the class this year with so little interest and keep the Eco class which had a substantial 12 driveres entered. And it saves on trophies too maybe a bit of sarcasm there Pete? It's an interesting observation over the number of racers in each class. A total of 8 from the 13 racers who competed in the RRC Eco are still regulars at the club, many of whom have moved up to stock now, ( a class serving a purpose of bringing new members into the club??) Whereas just 6 from the 23 people who competed in the prostock class at RRC last year can still be considered regulars. It's certain the new speedo's are faster; setup is becoming more critical, I can't be the only one who's thought they've got a sorted 17.5 setup and then stuck in a 13.5 and found the car turning up it's own @rse My personal view is that our track is not big enough in it's current form to run 10.5 successfully with a gen 3 speedo, or rather to use the full power that a 10.5 can deliver (cue a dig about me not being a superior driver and not being able to drive 10.5) The BRCA need to think about the club pronto - 17.5 is a class that needs to be looked at seriously!
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Post by yellowshark on Mar 11, 2010 20:04:04 GMT
Maybe just a hint of there Matt ;D Don't get me wrong I was not trying to question the presence of Ansman in the RRC. I was just trying to understand the logic behind the assertion that there was not any interest and what seems to be a policy to discourage ProStock drivers. If you look again you will see that 10 of those Prostock drivers have been at the club in recent weeks My personal view is that just about the best move the club has made in the last two years is the introduction of the class. It is a joy to see the guys and gals going around, bumping into each other, learning their craft and really enjoying themselves. And indeed to watch the unfit marshals sprinting all over the place ;D As I said to Les recently it reminds me of the now defunct 27T D or C finals. Twas always the the same. You move up a class and the extra power will highlight the deficiencies in your setup. That is not something to feel defeated by, rather something to get satisfaction from by overcoming. It is easy to windsurf in light winds but not so easy in higher winds "the force 4 barrier" to ride on the plane and carve a jibe; you need to get your setup better.
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Post by mattsedgley on Mar 11, 2010 20:35:21 GMT
1.Craig Campbell 2.Reuben Manning (13.5) 3.Matt Sedgley (13.5) 4.Simon Newbery (13.5) 5.Graham Staples 6.Chris Newbery (13.5) 7.Ian Newton (13.5) Who else have you seen from the list of pro stock entrants?? I've put in brackets the people who predominately run 13.5 over 10.5 In fact, the more I think about it, the more I'm willing to stick a bet on it. I'm willing to buy your beer after the next RRC round if you can list 5 members who have regularly run 10.5 in the last year and can still be considered regular club members at the minute I keep offering for you to join the committee to put these points forward more formally but you never do! - Chicken! and you cant use busy as an excuse neither! (what has Reubes started!)
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Post by TryHard on Mar 11, 2010 23:58:11 GMT
The BRCA need to think about the club pronto - 17.5 is a class that needs to be looked at seriously! Matt, you should know better than this.... The BRCA looks after BRCA sanctioned events, end of... it's simply up to the clubs to look after themselves (and a fine job most seem to be doing!) Let me put it another way... what would prefer, a choice to run a motor that you saw fit for your track, or have a class forced upon you that you didn't want to run? I'm not saying that 10.5 isn't too fast... I personally am begining to think it is, not from my personal driving point of view (I'll happily go off and do mod!) but more in terms of stepping stones.. it's just too close to mod in speed now, so where's the divison really? I know for the AGM at the end of the year, I'll certainly be proposing 13.5 for pro-stock... and possibly something else as well, but need to wait and see on that one Regards Ed
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Post by lesbaldry on Mar 12, 2010 8:15:26 GMT
Good and valid points Ed,but dont you think clubs should look towards the BRCA for giudance??...if there is no true stock class clubs will never have that steeping stone or bench mark for those who may want to compete at regional series level or even Nationals at some point. I hope we are not forgetting that 27t was ran very successfully through out the clubs and at National level for many years.why not 17.5 thats even faster now? As you say clubs will run what they want hence the interest in other classes.but why are there so many other classes??there never used to be!!at the moment all this is doing is diluting the future of competitive TC's as we know them and it will die slowly. My thoughts:Put it this way,any driver that wants a make a jump from any ready to run class to compete with a TC has to jump in at the deep end with a motor thats way to fast (13.5)to learn the fundamentals of set ups and race craft....again ROAR have got it right? Example;two up and coming racers Matt and Reubs,if they had never listened and learned with 17.5.they would still probably be bouncing of fence posts and ploughing fields or given up with frustration should they of run "mod only" as some one suggested ::)good luck to them they used the steeping stone of 17.5 wisely. 90% of us cant get the best out of a 13.5 let alone a 10.5,any clubbie that drives a mod theses days is a speed freak thats kidding himself,the extra speed is only covering up lack of natural pace!
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Post by Martin Young on Mar 12, 2010 11:16:40 GMT
I know I'm going to open a can of worms here but I'm going to put my opinion forward as a RC racer with limited funds. I think some of you are missing the cost issue.
In order for me to race competitively on any outdoor track (including Bashley) with definitely a 17.5 or probably with the new gen 3 speedo's a 13.5 i need to go and buy a new speedo (you only have to look at the for sale board after the last reality cup to see that), that doesn't in my case worry me too much as i enjoy just racing but it remain a fact that if you want to have a chance of winning you need to spend.
I'm not saying that 10.5 is right for everyone but surely a class should exist for those who wish to race it. I know last year when i ran 10.5 for the first time outside i was slower than i was with a 13.5 but i have to say i had the biggest smile after the race than i had for a long time. At least with a 10.5 the limiting factor is me and not how much money I throw at it!
I agree that a 17.5 class is required for beginners but just please consider the class at club and regional level is the hardest fought class with probably the highest financial cost (especially motor speedo and possible cells) in order to be competitive.
If the TC is being diluted by too many classes surely the amalgamation into one class with F1 F2 etc splits is the way to go??? Some clubs have already gone this way.
Just my thoughts!
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